Some Philosophical Considerations during Re-read

[Rhinan Salaman]

Like the name suggests, I'll post whatever philosophical considerations I find in my reread here. Mostly as a mental excercise 😅.

The first one is: is the Dark One infinite? Is the taint infinite?
It assumes that the One Power is infinite, since it will continue to be so long as time is.
The questions arise from male channeling: it's described as sweetness and vileness mixed. If the One Power is infinite, should the taint not be infinite too, since it manages to be in all of the male half?

 

[Anika Forsyn]

This is a really good idea! When you finish the series, you'll be able to track your whole reading experience! I wish I'd thought of this

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

I think the first thing to consider is if the Dark One is Infinite or Eternal. There's a difference.

The Wheel of Time keeps on turning, it never ends and therefore it is eternal. The One Power is said to turn the Wheel and it can be postulated that it is eternal. If we consider the Law of the Conservation of Energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, the One Power is not created or destroyed. Considering this, energy is not infinite, there is a finite amount that allows it to be expended and converted. I imagine the One Power to be a kind of self-sustaining energy. Additionally, it is impossible for the Taint to be infinite since it was able to be cleansed from Saidin. There had to have been a finite amount for it to have been removed. The Taint endured for so long because it was like a parasite and was able to subsist on the existence of the One Power.

I think it is safe to say that the Dark One is eternal, he has been defeated time after time and still has not ceased to exist. In Rand's vision, we see a world without the Dark One and it's just wrong. The Wheel of Time concerns itself with keeping the balance and will correct as needed. Perhaps, by nature, the Dark One isn't eternal, but for the fact that the Dark One is tied to the Wheel.

 

[Rhinan Salaman]

I think the first thing to consider is if the Dark One is Infinite or Eternal. There's a difference.

The Wheel of Time keeps on turning, it never ends and therefore it is eternal. The One Power is said to turn the Wheel and it can be postulated that it is eternal. If we consider the Law of the Conservation of Energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, the One Power is not created or destroyed. Considering this, energy is not infinite, there is a finite amount that allows it to be expended and converted. I imagine the One Power to be a kind of self-sustaining energy. Additionally, it is impossible for the Taint to be infinite since it was able to be cleansed from Saidin. There had to have been a finite amount for it to have been removed. The Taint endured for so long because it was like a parasite and was able to subsist on the existence of the One Power.

I think it is safe to say that the Dark One is eternal, he has been defeated time after time and still has not ceased to exist. In Rand's vision, we see a world without the Dark One and it's just wrong. The Wheel of Time concerns itself with keeping the balance and will correct as needed. Perhaps, by nature, the Dark One isn't eternal, but for the fact that the Dark One is tied to the Wheel.

Huh, actually that makes sense, the One Power being finite. I was thinking that whenever the One Power is used by channelers they "drink" from the Source, so to speak, but the Power has to go somewhere after they stop channeling, so it makes sense that it just goes back to the Source. This raises the question: if enough channelers channel at the same time, can they stop the Wheel? Can they channel so much of the power that it stops turning the Wheel, and thus stop time, and so be stuck infinitely in a time freeze?

The Dark One being eternal also makes sense yeah, inherently or practically. Though it also poses another issue: free will. I don't think free will exists in the Wheel of Time, unless the visions Rand has are decieving in some way.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

I think that if all of the Channelers in the world Channeled at the same time, it would not stop the Wheel. Would it cause uncertain effects? Probably. However, I think this is why some people are more powerful, or weaker than others. There's a limit to what magic users can call upon.

 

[Rhinan Salaman]

What I meant is that if we got enough channelers, can we channel all of the Power? Or do you mean that the Pattern allows only a quota of Power to be possibly channeled?

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

What I meant is that if we got enough channelers, can we channel all of the Power? Or do you mean that the Pattern allows only a quota of Power to be possibly channeled?

I would say that there is a quota, but even if there wasn't, if we consider that when the One Power is used it returns back to the Source, then it wouldn't stop the Wheel.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

This raises the question: if enough channelers channel at the same time, can they stop the Wheel? Can they channel so much of the power that it stops turning the Wheel, and thus stop time, and so be stuck infinitely in a time freeze?

the wheel determines who is born and when, I don't think it would spit out enough channelers at once to drain the source. The wheel is self perpetuating and presumably self preserving. And it's said to have a will and presumably some intelligence.

Is the Wheel itself the creator?

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

I don't think the Creator is the Wheel of Time. If I remember correctly, it was set in place by the Creator. Though, I think that it is very possible that the Wheel of Time is just a complex weave of the One Power.

 

[Elanda Tonil]

Interesting questions!

Iirc, Robert Jordan said the Creator created the Wheel and its accompanying universe then peace’d out. So the Creator is external to the system and will not interfere to protect it. The creating was the interested part for the Creator, not the maintaining of it. People pray to the Creator, but he/she/it isn’t actually listening.

I never imagined channelers to be taking the Power from something to then create something. If we imagine the Power as being a river and the Wheel being a mill wheel, channelers don’t stand on the shore and scoop the water out of the river to do something with it (in my view of it). I imagined them as directing the flow of things from within the system. So there’s a top to the river with no air between the water and the top. The channelers are within the river and have paddles. They can move the water around them, but since there’s nothing around the water, no air or rocks or whatnot, it just changes the direction of the water. Of course, space is flowing in all directions at all times which would make it very difficult to stop the flow. I don’t think humanity is l enough to truly affect that. The Dark One could affect the Wheel and the flow of time and space, because he’s external to the system, but I don’t believe mortals within the system could.

But if TDO broke the Wheel, then things could get really interesting. How much of the system would break with the Wheel’s breaking?

 

[Ephrem Elpidius]

Interesting questions!

Iirc, Robert Jordan said the Creator created the Wheel and its accompanying universe then peace’d out. So the Creator is external to the system and will not interfere to protect it. The creating was the interested part for the Creator, not the maintaining of it. People pray to the Creator, but he/she/it isn’t actually listening.

I never imagined channelers to be taking the Power from something to then create something. If we imagine the Power as being a river and the Wheel being a mill wheel, channelers don’t stand on the shore and scoop the water out of the river to do something with it (in my view of it). I imagined them as directing the flow of things from within the system. So there’s a top to the river with no air between the water and the top. The channelers are within the river and have paddles. They can move the water around them, but since there’s nothing around the water, no air or rocks or whatnot, it just changes the direction of the water. Of course, space is flowing in all directions at all times which would make it very difficult to stop the flow. I don’t think humanity is l enough to truly affect that. The Dark One could affect the Wheel and the flow of time and space, because he’s external to the system, but I don’t believe mortals within the system could.

But if TDO broke the Wheel, then things could get really interesting. How much of the system would break with the Wheel’s breaking?

this is very interesting, thank you for sharing, I did not know any of this.

so Deist view of God basically, combined Free Will which then created the Dark One as people learned to temper their desires/7 deadly sins, and then a constant balance of chaos/darkness/giving in to seven deadly sins with light/virtue/order/just being kind cause we are all in this together...

am I on the right track here? I think in some galaxy systems, the Dark One does win, and those systems probably turn to hell for awhile, but ultimately collapse in nothingness before too long as people lose the will the go on. I would think the Creator that enjoys Creating, probably goes to many galaxies and solar systems to create then leaves, etc.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

I wonder if Robert Jordan personally was inclined toward a deist view? I find it really depressing.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

IIRC Robert Jordan was a Christian.

 

[Ephrem Elpidius]

IIRC Robert Jordan was a Christian.

yeah, the King James Bible was his favorite book, I remember that specifically from my youth many years ago.

 

[Rhinan Salaman]

But if TDO broke the Wheel, then things could get really interesting. How much of the system would break with the Wheel’s breaking?

Okay first of all, I forgot about this thread, sorry 😅 .

Next, about the question: this goes back to the question of what is the Pattern really? Is it the events or the world? In a sense, is it the stage or the script? I think the Portal Stone worlds really matter in this

 

[Toral Delvar]

Was there a first turning of the wheel, or are there infinite cycles going into the past. In which case was the universe ever created? Is it destroyed at the end of the 7th spoke and then fully created from nothing each time? Where do all the souls go while it resets and during the time for planets to form and evolution to occur? Or is this a universe where there is no stellar or biological evolution?

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Maybe it's like a clock and the Age doesn't really matter, it's just an arbitrary point where the counter resets. What's the difference between the last hour of the day yesterday and the first hour of today? It's not like the actually world kabooms and resets just because it's a new day. (...THAT WE KNOW OF. )

 

[Rhinan Salaman]

I'd also think that the Wheel was created in motion but like you said, did people evolve or were they just created instantly? It's because of some things implied about the pattern like the Dragon vs. DO and all that

 

[Rhinan Salaman]

(...THAT WE KNOW OF. )

😭 this emoji is so fitting

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

Maybe it's like a clock and the Age doesn't really matter, it's just an arbitrary point where the counter resets. What's the difference between the last hour of the day yesterday and the first hour of today? It's not like the actually world kabooms and resets just because it's a new day. (...THAT WE KNOW OF. )

I like this thought.



I also like...um...if we're going off the idea that energy isn't created or stored, merely transferred, then the Big Bang as a "reset" point makes sense to me. Everything in the universe gets dragged back into a tiny little point, which then explodes outward to start the process all over again. That would include the One Power and people's souls, the threads of the Pattern...everything.


We hear about the Dragon Reborn fighting the Dark One in the Third Age in every turning of the Wheel, but who's to say they don't also fight in, say, the Sixth or Seventh Age? The whole point of the Wheel is that we lose all memory of what happened in the last turning by the time it happens again, sooo.....maybe the Seventh Age people have myths about the Dragon Reborn the way the Third Age people have myths about the time before the Age of Legends, but the Third Age wouldn't know about the Seventh Age events at all, no matter how massive, because the Wheel has turned too far since they happened.

So....maybe TDO and the Dragon fight in the Seventh Age (or whatever the last Age is) as well, and the Dragon loses. Every time. By design. The Dark One is like "YES I FINALLY WIN" and shoves everything in the universe into the prison he'd been stuck inside of because he's vicious and vindictive...only shoving so much stuff into one tiny place generates so much gravity that it sucks him in, too. (Existential black hole). Then it explodes outward (Big Bang), but TDO gets stuck inside, thus starting the whole cycle over. By the time they get to the Seventh Age again, he has also forgotten all about what happened the last time (in WoT we can see that even Moridin, his supposed avatar, only has the vaguest memory of a distant myth that is only circumstantially associated with Rand), so he repeats the same mistake into infinity.

If that were true, than the purpose of the Third Age and the Dragon Reborn isn't actually to re-imprison the Dark One, it's to give him a taste of almost victory, then slam him back into his cage and leave him to stew in bitterness for millions of years so that when he's inevitably released again, he's certain to enact his vengeance and thus accidentally hit the reset button.

...I suddenly miss theoryland. :[