So we needed Moiraine...[spoiler]

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Paladin Brewer, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. Paladin Brewer

    Paladin Brewer

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    Why? I just finished the book, and I did not see that Moiraine did anything relevant that made it worth Mat rescuing her? All she seemed to do was help link with Moridin at the end but any woman could have done so. Did I miss something? That seemed to be the part that bothered me the most, I was waiting for her to do something important, and she did not?

    EDIT: On another note, guess I had to re-register, oopsy for being inactive :p
     
  2. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Without Moiraine the meeting with Egwene and the other heads of states would have fallen apart. Rand was right on the cusp of losing it at her, she walked in at the right moment, and pulled it all together.


    Min was right, without Moiraine Rand would have failed.
     
  3. Paladin Brewer

    Paladin Brewer

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    That seems a bit....weak, to me. For one, I'm not sure we can say 100% Rand would not have succeeded as far as that meeting goes without Rand showing up. Secondly, that meeting was more about post-Last Battle. Rand succeeding was about winning the Last Battle, not so much what happened after it. Also from the prophecies Aviendha and the Wise Ones were having, it would seem there will be more fighting again afterwards anyway.
     
  4. Braydon Roque

    Braydon Roque Resident Citizen

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    Yeah, Moiraine was a total joke for me. She was the bad ass of the series and with her 'death' and expectation of 'rebirth' we had this huge expectation that she would provide something amazing. Maybe not as far as a battle, but as far as information... or something.

    I can only assume that Jordan had no notes on her. I can't imagine such a terribly fluffed ending without some form of miscommunication.

    Did we ever find out all her answers? Now that I think about it, the whole Sindhol thing seems really poorly thought out.
     
  5. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    I think Rand "succeeding" is a lot more than just winning The Last Battle. Throughout the series it has been clear that Rand expected to die at Shayol Ghul, but wanted desperately to leave something meaningful behind. Beyond just the fact that the DO would have been defeated, he wanted to have a legacy beyond "The Dragon Reborn." So this peace, the Academies... that was all really important. Yes, Rand was bluffing when he said that if people refused to sign the Peace Treaty, he wouldn't go to Shayol Ghul, but to even use it as a bluff shows how desperate he was, how much he needed that treaty to succeed. If Moiraine hadn't calmed things down and brought the meeting back under control, the Treaty might never have happened. In which case, what kind of attitude would Rand have had as he went to battle the DO? It could have ruined everything.

    The other thing is that Moiraine was one of the only Aes Sedai that Rand really trusted. So he trusted her and Nynaeve to link with him when he said, follow his plan and not try to take control and totally feck things up. If Rand had had a modicum of doubt about the trustworthiness of whoever he was with, would things have gone to plan?

    I think "importance" is sometimes misconstrued as "showy" or "Power-related" or... I can't find the right word, but to me it's like expecting Moiraine to be a celebrity rather than a genius who just quietly gets the job done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  6. Alora Sionn

    Alora Sionn Gaidin Outreach Activities Coordinator

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    I can't help but think of that list in Rand's head. Moiraine's name was at the top of that list for a really long time, and maybe seeing she was alive was enough to help Rand, that was one less person, and a very important person to Rand, that was weighing on his conscience. I also agree with the trust issue, even if 'any AS could do it', Rand is stubborn and he wouldn't trust just any Aes Sedai. On top of that, Moiraine was originally very strong in the Power, after being rescued she was considerably weaker, but she said with the angreal she got from the foxes, she was even stronger than she was initially, which is really strong. Nynaeve was up there among the strongest too, and the others who had as comparatively high strength in the power were needed elsewhere in the battle and could not be spared. It HAD to have been Nynaeve and Moiraine.

    Jordan could have left notes regarding her but they weren't emphasized enough by Sanderson (which I think is a possibility since I am not happy with how he handled certain other scenes >.>). Ultimately Sanderson did the best he could but I think we would have seen more in depth detail on this as well as many other things had Jordan been able to do the writing.
     
  7. Seaghan Hama

    Seaghan Hama Citizen

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    If I'm remembering correctly, Moiraine also kind of set Egwene straight on the whole breaking the seals idea. Telling her that it needed to be done and as the Watcher of the Seals she would be the one to do it.
     
  8. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    She did, but Egwene didn't break them, Logain did, though she sent the message saying when they should be broken
    Rand was threatening to walk away if he didn't get his agreement. If he meant it, then it does seem that he wouldn't have won without Moiraine, as he wouldn't have fought. Even if he had still fought, it could be argued that without the unified command, they wouldn't have been able to defend Shayol Ghul so well
     
  9. Murasaki al'Aevon

    Murasaki al'Aevon Gaidin Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb

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    Moiraine is THE Cairienan. Master of the Game of Houses... Rand definitely would NOT have succeeded without her politicing.
     
  10. Zimone Zarasri

    Zimone Zarasri Aes Sedai

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    All the (mostly lack of) Moiraine parts were quite disappointing.
     
  11. Sorcha Al'Verdan

    Sorcha Al'Verdan Aes Sedai

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    Without Moiraine there to take one of the two spots at Shayol Ghul, Rand would have needed to pull someone else off of the field of battle. Who can say what the ramifications of that would have been? If he'd pulled Avi or Elayne or Egwene, the battle would have been blown. Out of the women who were trustworthy and strong enough to actually help, if he'd pulled Amys, Alivia, etc. they wouldn't have been able to save the lives that were saved by them and the battle still would have been blown. Moiraine was the only logical choice. She had the requisite strength thanks to that angreal, Rand could trust her, and she didn't really have another place to be.
     
  12. Murasaki al'Aevon

    Murasaki al'Aevon Gaidin Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb

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    She also kept Rand in check. Kept him doing what he needed to do to fulfill prophecies.
     
  13. Darim Pelegro

    Darim Pelegro

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    Yeah, her return was disappointing. She didn't come back with any new wisdom or any particularly unique power; she contributed in no heroic or uniquely-Moiraine-ish way to the battle.

    Other than affection's sake, there was no reason to return Moiraine to the story. Left alone, her sacrifice would have been much more meaningful.
     
  14. Murasaki al'Aevon

    Murasaki al'Aevon Gaidin Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb

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    I think it was important to Rand that she came back. It gave him strength to continue. With Moiraine dead, it was just another sacrifice in the name of the Light. But with her return, there was hope for Rand, and he was better able to convince himself and others that their is hope and recovery after the last battle.
     
  15. Dart Marouvin

    Dart Marouvin

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    I agree, disappointing. It was established earlier that Nynaeve and Moiraine were the two Aes Sedai Rand felt he could trust completely, so it makes sense that he needed them to go with him into the Pit of Doom. That doesn't make it satisfactory, and I definitely felt that both the Aes Sedai didn't really have much to do. The whole thing with Alanna was a joke, for instance.

    Maybe she just didn't want to die/get stuck playing Snakes and Foxes so she wrote that letter and for merely selfish reasons. That's a better answer.
     
  16. Jeffan Caliarthan

    Jeffan Caliarthan Aes Sedai Director of Marketing

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    I think that she was needed for Rand to do everything he did; if she hadn't shown up, he would have lost the treaty, and even if he had somehow managed to get everyone to sign, there still would have been the whole mess with the seals. However, I think that her to come back just for a chapter was pretty lame. Jordan/Sanderson could have utilized her in a much better way that was satisfactory not just to the story, but to the fans who had been excited for her return.
     
  17. Asandra al'Terra

    Asandra al'Terra Marquise de Sparkle Accepted

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    I thought she was understated in the best possible way. That's what her role was her entire life -- none of this was about her; it was about finding the Dragon Reborn and getting him to where he has to be. I know we all want these huge shows - like what Egwene did - but her role continued exactly how it should have. I loved her, and I still love her.
     
  18. Dart Marouvin

    Dart Marouvin

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    Asandra, when you put it that way it makes sense/seems less disappointing
     
  19. Murasaki al'Aevon

    Murasaki al'Aevon Gaidin Company Commander of Mahdi'in d'ma Dieb

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    Yes. Very well said.
     
  20. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Indeed.
    Not only Rand and Egwene. Mat, Perrin, Nyneave... She was the one who made them as they are, in a way. Her conversation with Egwene is a perfect example: telling the Amyrlin that SHE must be the one to break the seals, as she is their guardian.