So, About the Forsaken...

[Ashlyn Sindal]

It is stated quite clearly in ToM, both in the book itself, and spelled out in the glossary.

Where in the book itself is it clearly stated? I remember hints, but I sure don't remember anything being clearly stated until the glossary.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

Kind of early, in a scene with Graendal and Shaidar Haran. SH remarks on how she's got a habit of killing other Forsaken. Or being responsible for their deaths (I don't recall exactly what he said). But it's about how she's responsible for Aran'gar (whom she left to be balefired by Rand), and how her plots resulted in the death of Mesaana. And Asmodean.

 

[Tehmpus]

I agree with Ashlyn, the reference isn't really clearly stated. Shaidar Haran does blame Graendal for the deaths of 3 Chosen.

Interestingly enough, in Towers of Midnight, Messana is just mentally destroyed, not really killed.

However, it isn't really stated clearly until the glossary, like Ashlyn said. The Shaidar Haran reference is well done, but you really have to be paying close attention in order to understand it.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

And I think that's the perfect way to do it. Why spell it out right? It's all there, if you do pay attention, because there were only 3 Forsaken that could've been killed by her.

En Mesaana's dead for all intents and purposes.

 

[Tehmpus]

Perhaps that just means that the Aes Sedai are going to kill Messana. It might be a timeline thing.

 

[Midian Venamar]

Tehmpus, that would make sense if it wasn't stated in the glossary that Graendal did kill Asmodean.

Side note, that I'm kinda surprised no one caught ... Ishamael was not the first Forsaken; Meirin (aka Lanfear) was the first. She opened the bore, was the only one to decide on her new name, and the very first of the Forsaken.

I do have a strong feeling that either Demandred (Berid Bel) or Moridin will change sides before the end. Either Demandred will see that he will always be slighted, and will turn against the Shadow at the last moment in hopes of gaining massive respect on the side of the Light after Rand dies. That, or Moridin with see that there is reason to live, and continue the Wheel ... or somehow give himself up in an attempt to allow Rand the ability to continue living after the last battle.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Read the description of Be'lal's death when Moiraine uses Balefire to kill him.

There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.

Then the description of Asmodean's death:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

These two descriptions are very similar, with their cries in the air after they are dead.

As to the whole "where" affect on Asmodean, I find it to be irrelevant. Other than being in the palace in Caemlyn, there is no indication of where he is. He goes through a small door. He is *intending* to find the pantry, but clearly doesn't make it that far. The only way I can think of "where" might have an effect is if it's within range of a woman who could sense the channeling, but there's nothing to indicate they were anywhere near a woman can channel, and it wouldn't take a strong pull to channel a light bar to simply end Asmodean.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

Tehmpus, that would make sense if it wasn't stated in the glossary that Graendal did kill Asmodean.

Side note, that I'm kinda surprised no one caught ... Ishamael was not the first Forsaken; Meirin (aka Lanfear) was the first. She opened the bore, was the only one to decide on her new name, and the very first of the Forsaken.

I do have a strong feeling that either Demandred (Berid Bel) or Moridin will change sides before the end. Either Demandred will see that he will always be slighted, and will turn against the Shadow at the last moment in hopes of gaining massive respect on the side of the Light after Rand dies. That, or Moridin with see that there is reason to live, and continue the Wheel ... or somehow give himself up in an attempt to allow Rand the ability to continue living after the last battle.

I'm not so sure about Demandred, but I agree with you about Moridin. I also think Lanfear may be at the breaking point to switch sides, too, with those "beautiful, terrible eyes".

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Tehmpus, that would make sense if it wasn't stated in the glossary that Graendal did kill Asmodean.

Side note, that I'm kinda surprised no one caught ... Ishamael was not the first Forsaken; Meirin (aka Lanfear) was the first. She opened the bore, was the only one to decide on her new name, and the very first of the Forsaken.

Well you've hit on one of my favorite things to think about there.

Mierin was indeed right there at the destruction of the Sharom during the drilling of the bore but doesn't declare for the dark for a very long time. The official record seems to make her number 5.

As far as I can work it out, the order of joining goes something like this:

(note this collapse period lasted about 100-100 years after the drilling

Nemene Damendar Boann,- Semirhage.

Elan Morin Tedronai,- Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope.

Kamarile Maradim Nindar, - Graendel, joins the dark but keeps it a secret

Ishar Morrad Chuain,- Aginor,

Eval Ramman,- Balthamel,

Mierin Eronaile, Lanfear,

Ared Mosinel,- Rahvin,

Duram Laddel Cham, -Be'lal,

Joar Addam Nessosin- Asmodean,

Saine Tarasind,-Mesaana,

Lillen Moiral, - Moghedien, joins but keeps it a secret

Kamarile Maradim Nindar- Graendel reveals that she's joined the shadow,

WAR BEGINS

Barid Bel Medar,- Demandred.

Lillen Moiral - Moghedien declares her allegiance to the Dark One.

Tel Janin Aellinsar, -Sammael

So Lanfear seems to join the dark something like 50-60 years after the actual bore was drilled. The thing I can't work out is had she been sworn to the dark once since the drilling or does she only turn after LTT gets married as is the general consensus.

Problem is, either could be possible. It wouild certainly explain how she might have survived the Sharom destruction.

Although she is a channeler, she could possibly have shielded herself from it, or gated out if in time so its not strictly necessary. Sometimes I must admit I wonder if being directly in the way of an outlash of the True Power like that, and possibly in more direct contact to the DO that anyone ever has been since then...........if he didn't take her mind and twist it in some way along the lines of the 13+13 trick.

 

[Midian Venamar]

I think you've got it about right Axis. I always assumed Lanfear was the first since she opened the Bore and survived ... but rereading the BWB, your timeline is much more accurate. I still can't figure out why it would take Lanfear that long to join the DO ... or why she did so much later if she initially decided not to. Vengeance against LTT might make sense, because she is one crazy ex-gf ... but that seems pretty drastic for someone that before that seemed pretty sane and logical. Also, If he 13x13-or-somethinged her, then it doesn't make much sense that it would've taken so long for it to take effect. Not only that, but why would he allow her to choose her own name if she fought him for so long ... *shrug* so much speculation.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

I wish RJ could give a straight answer sometimes.................

This quote while sort of suggests she wasn't twisted.....doesn't rule it out either.

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

We should have people with bloody tape recorders at these interviews, the paraphrase things are annoying. This is the answer I really wanted to know too.

Interview: Apr 23rd, 2010
JordanCon 2010 Q&A Report - Terez (Paraphrased)
Ted Herman
How in the world did Lanfear survive that gigantic explosion that was depicted in the ter'angreal?
Terez
[I don't remember what she said! WSB? I think Tam was talking to me about something, but I seem to remember that question getting fielded to the floor.]
Ted Herman
Maria didn't even say RAFO. That was put out for discussion, which I am fine with. Some thought she wasn't physically there, or used the shield weave that Rand used in The Path of Daggers.
Matt Hatch

Is Lanfear the only surviving person that is aware of how the Bore was created?
Maria Simons
I don't know. Mesaana or Demandred might know.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Well, that is frustrating. I figure Lanfear was ripe for the plucking because she was inwardly insane over her jealousy towards Lews Therin and Ilyena. I've never seen the timeline confirmed, but I assume that LTT marrying Ilyena happened before the Bore was drilled. I got this impression mainly because of Rand spontaneously making a comment to Lanfear about how she loved power. It was in pursuit of power that she ended up drilling the Bore.

 

[VnMJack]

In addition to what everyone else said, don't forget that towards the end of TOM, in the black tower the Ashamen are starting to change and some can "tell" that they aren't themselves. If Lanfear or any of the Forsaken were turned with the 13x13 method, I think Rand would be able to tell and would have commented on it. Just my opinion!

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Well, that is frustrating. I figure Lanfear was ripe for the plucking because she was inwardly insane over her jealousy towards Lews Therin and Ilyena. I've never seen the timeline confirmed, but I assume that LTT marrying Ilyena happened before the Bore was drilled. I got this impression mainly because of Rand spontaneously making a comment to Lanfear about how she loved power. It was in pursuit of power that she ended up drilling the Bore.

I'd have thought you'd be sick of being corrected by me and wouldn't be making assumptions

She was powerhungry long before that.

LTT and Mierin had a relationship prior to drilling the bore which he terminated mainly due to her ambition.

Not exactly sure how long they had been broken up before the bore was drilled (200 years max for sure as an upper limit, but likely much less than that.

What I do know is this, It was about 50 years before the war of the shadow that LTT marries Ilyena in a ceremony that Mierin even tries to disrupt.

Lanfear joins the shadow pretty soon after the marriage.

As long as I'm putting numbers down, the major events after this are

The War of the shadow breaks out 100-110 years after the drilling
War of the shadow (war of power) approx 10 years in length
Sealing of prison/backlash on saidin
Time of Madness - approx ten years in length
Breaking of World - 239 to 344 years in length

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Axis, I never get tired of you correcting me. How else am I supposed to learn?

Actually, I think we mostly agree there, I just didn't say my bit as well, mainly because I didn't have the precise timeline. Mierin & LTT had a thing. LTT broke up with Mierin because she "loved power". LTT married Ilyena. The bore was drilled at some point along the way. Mierin turned because she was full of hatred over LTT and Ilyena. I was just a little off on the timeline.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Yeah that's pretty much it.


The timeline is one of the more interesting things to look into about the Second Age I find. Quite telling the way a few things occured.

 

[CalebMSmith90]

Tehmpus, that would make sense if it wasn't stated in the glossary that Graendal did kill Asmodean.

Side note, that I'm kinda surprised no one caught ... Ishamael was not the first Forsaken; Meirin (aka Lanfear) was the first. She opened the bore, was the only one to decide on her new name, and the very first of the Forsaken.

I do have a strong feeling that either Demandred (Berid Bel) or Moridin will change sides before the end. Either Demandred will see that he will always be slighted, and will turn against the Shadow at the last moment in hopes of gaining massive respect on the side of the Light after Rand dies. That, or Moridin with see that there is reason to live, and continue the Wheel ... or somehow give himself up in an attempt to allow Rand the ability to continue living after the last battle.

I was under the impression that Ishmael was the first to reveal himself as pledged to the dark, and that Moghedian was the first to pladge herself. She went over way before most, givin that most of the men went over as result of their hatred of lews therin. Lanfear I believe didn't join till partway through the war. Her being the one that opened the Bore was just coincidence

 

[Kaldam Luciere]

I just can't see Demandred turning. He has waited 3000 years to kill Lews Therin. His hatred is just about all he has left.

I don't think Moridin will turn either. But he at least is not truly 'evil' like the others (Although he is definitely insane from True Power overuse), and unlike the others not particularly selfish.

I do, however, see a surprise ending in the Pit of Doom involving Rand, Moridin, and Demandred happening.

 

[Midian Venamar]

Caleb, Axis actually put a post after that one of mine that corrected me. He has a solid description of what order the Forsaken turned, and generally when.

Kaldam, I'm totally with you there. I highly doubt Demandred would turn, and I don't see Moridin turning on his own. And totally, with the surprise ending with the three of them together ... which I think will have a lot to do with the bond that Rand and Moridin now share.

 

[Kaldam Luciere]

That bond......I've always wondered......

Could they possibly even switch bodies? And then Demandred balefires the wrong man?