Siuan spoilers

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Slynese, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. Slynese

    Slynese

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    She died? I like her a lot. Why didn't she heed min's warning?
    Her death is so unnecessary.
     
  2. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    I agree. It was one of the deaths which really annoyed me. I can absolutely understand why Siuan felt like the time to stay close to Bryne was past, after each saved the other while in the White Tower. I mean, I know Min doesn't get all the details from a viewing, but I don't recall her saying to Siuan that she had to stick like a burr to Bryne for the rest of her life.
     
  3. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    I feel worse about Bryne than Siuan... At least she had the choice to sacrifice herself there, but once she was gone, what choice did Bryne have? Senseless Warder kamikaze...
     
  4. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

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    I feel that belittles Bryne's intelligence somewhat. He was a soldier, who faced the prospect of dying in battle hundreds of times. Also, he was not unfamiliar/uneducated about Aes Sedai - I could quite believe he knew fine well what the price may be. Also, I think if Siuan had tried to tell him to stay away from the battle (The Last Battle!) he would've told her where to go :lol
     
  5. Cold Manshima

    Cold Manshima

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    That's a more than fair point, Ealandrelle Sedai. Bryne certainly knew the consequences of anything happening to Siuan once he became her Warder. I have a deep-rooted bitterness about what happens to a Warder when his Aes Sedai dies; it's de-humanizing. But I suppose that's the trade-off of the borderline superhuman enhancements of a Warder.

    This is a concept I have some difficulty expressing properly, but I feel like Bryne would have wanted his death to have achieved something more than a pointless kamikaze; for example, Hurin knew what he died for, to "buy Lord Rand more time". Yes, Bryne knew what he was fighting for, and what he might die for, but it still bothers me that he had no chance/choice once Siuan died.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  6. Dars al'Kaskade

    Dars al'Kaskade Recruit

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    Siuan's death was, I think, the saddest thing in the entire series for me. Other than perhaps Egwene, who I really expected to survive, but who went out in a blaze of crystalline glory. Poor Siuan--at least she got that great POV when Rand arrived at the Tower.
     
  7. Inanna Landred

    Inanna Landred Aes Sedai

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    The last battle was a huge mixed bag of feelings for me. But yes, Siuan's death was a GoT like moment.
     
  8. Asandra al'Terra

    Asandra al'Terra Marquise de Sparkle Accepted

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    Yeah, but Min didn't know until right before one of them died, right?

    Her death made me so sad, but it seemed appropriate -- it's war; people die.
     
  9. Dars al'Kaskade

    Dars al'Kaskade Recruit

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    I think that part of what got to me about it was that she was the first semi-major character to actually die and stay dead. It had to start happening at some point, but it was still a shock, that first blow.
     
  10. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    From Great Captains to errand/messenger boys recurs in AMoL. Bryne and Bashere ended their illustrious careers carrying messages; at least Bashere's message was battle orders. Bryne's was "fetch my fool warder!" You'd think that separating an AS from her warder in a battlefield would have required something slightly more important than a message that could been delivered by any other soldier.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  11. Polegnyn Nemeara

    Polegnyn Nemeara Aes Sedai

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    Gareth Bryne's death is the part of Siuan's ending that I can't quite comprehend either. Sure, they were married and bonded. Maybe it's the fictional equivalent of perfectly healthy spouses/SOs suddenly dying with their spouse/SO dies? There wouldn't have been enough time to try Myrelle Berengari's method of keeping him out of trouble either. :waggle :$ Regardless, one would think his battle-hardiness would have kept him from just mindlessly charging into the chaos, bonded or not. Maybe he came a bit undone after Mat relieved him of command so soon before?

    I agree Siuan and Gareth could have thought Min's viewing had already been fulfilled. And, if I remember correctly, Siuan wasn't going anywhere particularly dangerous, and she was with a group who would have been able to protect her if necessary. So strange... :arch
     
  12. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    I remember Lan's words to Rand after his bond with Moiraine was severed; but Lan was buffered by the passing of the bond to Myrelle. Then Myrelle's last warder was restrained till he was made safe. But in the end, Min's viewing is that if they were separated, both would die. The Creator has spoken!

    The Thing is this, Siuan could have released the bond before she died. Min warned her well before she was in danger. She had time to do what Alanna did even though Alanna's conditions were much more dire. Siuan had the choice to release the bond and save her lover's life (they weren't married yet) or keep the bond and have him go through warder rage. Egwene made the right choice with Leilwin.

    It is one of many "duh!!!" moments and concepts regarding the bond. But to be fair, can a warder be bonded a second time if the bond is released normally?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  13. Polegnyn Nemeara

    Polegnyn Nemeara Aes Sedai

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    I have a feeling I need to finish relistening to AMoL before asking what events you're referring to here. I just started the mega-chapter.

    Time to stop myself from fact checking at wot.wikia...:novice
     
  14. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    I don't remember any specific reference or indication that Siuan and Gareth were married. What I remember from their conversation in Towers of Midnight (around Rand's visit to the White Tower) is that they planned to get married after Siuan feels that her mission is fulfilled.
     
  15. Polegnyn Nemeara

    Polegnyn Nemeara Aes Sedai

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    The Companion says they never married so it never happened :)
     
  16. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thanks :) I don't remember reading that in the Companion. But now we have something "canon" to verify that they weren't married.
     
  17. Polegnyn Nemeara

    Polegnyn Nemeara Aes Sedai

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    A bit further in and these events are beginning to happen. Everything is beginning to come back. :cry I agree. Bonds should have been let go. Though, Siuan's death happens so suddenly that I don't think she would have had time to do it. Alanna and Egwene had plenty of time.
     
  18. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Yeah, especially since Egwene did it with Leilwin, she could have done it with Gawyn too. Yes, she loved him, and it would be painful anyway, but releasing the bond would at least allowed her to keep fighting... I also think she would have survived then :look
     
  19. Polegnyn Nemeara

    Polegnyn Nemeara Aes Sedai

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    Agreed, Aduiavas Sedai. However, Egwene should have let go of Gawyn's bond way before Tarmon Gai'don even started, imo. He was a liability from the beginning. :facepalm

    ---
    I hope no one minds my discussing Egwene in the Siuan thread and vice versa :curtsey
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  20. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Siuan had time to release Bryne. Min warned her before they entered melee. It only takes a few seconds. But the sticking point is why they were separated. Bryne decided to demote himself to errand boy. He left Siuan to go fetch Gawyn from Elayne's camp. I'm sure another proper messenger would have been up to the task.

    As to Egwene releasing Gawyn's bond; that would have amounted to cold-blooded murder. The only thing keeping him alive was the strength and advantages of the bond. If he was a common soldier, he'd have died well before the whitecloaks found him. So, I have to disagree with Egwene releasing the bond. She had to keep it; keep the flicker of Gawyn's life burning, hoping to reach him in time and heal him. Cutting him off when he was wounded gravely would have been purely evil.