Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: To the End!

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    It is Egwene's chair, it is not like she doesn't know when she is done with it and it will be getting packed up to undo the flows.
     
  2. Murun

    Murun

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    Sorry to say, this "forcing Egwene" stuff is some random idea that someone in Team Jordan should have edited out. In TGH, right before the girls let them be led to Toman's Head, we see Eg and Elayne playing at roughly the same level - not very advanced, but both complaining that their teachers always demand more of them. No mention, however, of any extra lessons, by Siuan or whoever.(One has to remember that novice training is not primarily about learning to use the power, but learning about the Tower and building proper, conforming attitudes.)
    The sul'dam were much more efficient teachers (for the two months or so that she was held as damane), so any advantage should be credited to them.
    I would have loved to read that Verin used the long ride to Tar Valon for teaching or at least exercise ("Now you boil us some snow that we can have tea!"), but there is no mention of anything like that.
    Egwene may also have profited directly or indirectly from being present at Aviendha's training - at least seeing that different weaves produce the same results should have encouraged her to experiment with the Power.
    The topic of forcing turns up again in TPoD, when Elayne compares the relative strength of the windfinders and is surprised to see the three very strong apprentices - she was used to think of herself as on top, together with Nynaeve, and Egwene, "but she had been forced". Afterwards, this is mercifully never mentioned again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
  3. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    Yeah, I never understood where that came from. Yes, she was maybe "forced" some during her time as damane, but I don't think it is "forcing" the way the rest of Randland thinks of it, more of a "forcing" due to the fact that Egwene is not herself deciding what she can and cannot do.
    I also wonder what it is that Elayne has "learned" while they were gone in TGH, that merits her being Raised. I understand "because plot" and "because Siuan needs them" but this has always sounded weird to me.

    And then there is a mention that Siuan herself forced Egwene. When did that happen?
     
  4. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    I think Egwene being "forced" was mostly less about the power and more about "Forced into fighting The Black Ajah" which would mean she and the other gal pals were being forced to fight above their weight and learn faster by sheer need.
     
  5. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    I always assumed that Egwene's forcing took place during her time as a damane, because they did train her pretty roughly, and we get a lot of examples in TGH about how she had her limits pushed.
     
  6. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    But why would Siuan apologize for her forcing if it was just her time as damane?
     
  7. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    Dunno.

    I did read up on a'dam in the Companion and learned that you can't burn yourself out when wearing one. It's a built-in protection. Which is why the sul'dam were able to push Egwene; they didn't have to worry about breaking her.
     
  8. Murun

    Murun

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    @ Aduivas Ida: "forced" is used in the sense of an accelerating gain in using the power - mostly by using it whereever and whenever it is possible. It's done routinely in the Black Tower to get the Ashaman fit for battle in the shortest possible time - and from there we hear of the dangers, mainly burnout, but sometimes afflictions that lead to the death of the channeler. At the WT, they try to avoid casualties, with the result that not all novices learn as fast as they could. ("You coddle girls at the Tower", as Melaine of the Jhirad sept of the Goshien Aiel interpreted that.)

    Why Elayne was ready to be made Accepted? I guess mostly because of natural rise in strength in the course of maturation. It is true that the formal, systematic education of the three wonder girls was wanting in many respects, but they all seem to have that gift "When I see something done, I can memorize, analyze and repeat it" we are shown explicity most often with Nynaeve.

    Jordan had a love of putting similar but different characters in opposition to each other - Egwene as a novice was probably as greedy for progress in the power as Nicola is shown here on the last pages of ch 9, but she kind of kept a clearer head and had better luck. - There is a touch of competition between them in ths scene, and more or less Eg is telling Nicola "you can't have a career like mine".

    When did it - supposedly - happen? Well, during the first three months Egwene stayed at the Tower. But then, as I argued, why were Egwene and Elayne near equals after that time? Headcanon: It didn't happen, and Siuan had nothing to apologize for, and ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  9. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    ACOS 9 : Nicola and Arenia are Dumb, DUMD DUMB DUMB DUMB, They are lucky that I wasn't in Egwene's shoes, I would have gone full Wise one on them..grabbed both of them by the scrub on the back of their necks..and would drag them to the Mistress of Novices and gotten them a penance of having to run 50 laps around camp.

    Naked! Cause that is how Aiel do it.

    ACOS 10:

    Poor Egwene, she is caught between Wise Ones and their dislike of Aes Sedai, though the Wise Ones should have told Egwene about the BS Elaida pulled with stuffing Rand into a box. That is a fairly important thing to say.

    ACOS 11:

    Egwene gets her first Oaths, Delana, Romanda and Lelaine are all trying to screw around and cause fear and derision among the rebels.
     
  10. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    Elayne keeping up with Egwene never made sense to me. In all the time Egwene was being pushed by the Seanchan, she was hiding and trying not to channel

    Chapter 10 has a lot of dreams (http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=A_Crown_of_Swords:_Chapter_10)
    1) Gawyn - he had a bloody death in battle. Seems that if he hadn't married Egwene, he'd have had a long life
    2) Mat is obviously the dragons
    3) The headsman's axe - when she was captured and the Seanchan attack? Does that fit?
    4) Logain stepping over Rand's fake body - Rand's death won't be real, but what is Logain doing?
    5) Being tied to a golden hawk - bonding Egeanin?
     
  11. Murun

    Murun

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    Yes, and in TPoD ch2 (comparing strength of the windfinders) Elayne admits that Egwene is stronger. But before Falme - two fledgelings far from their ultimate potential - why not?

    Fits very loosely, perhaps her capture, because she was potentially under the death penalty. I'd rather leaved it unexplained.

    Taking charge of the Black Tower?

    - Yes, I think so too.
     
  12. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 9-11

    Kind of makes sense. I wonder if that's related to why Asmodean wished that Lanfear had Linked him and Rand together for training? I guess part of it might be a better understanding of what the other does, but since you can't burn someone out like that ... Seems related.

    Also worth keeping in mind that Elayne had so much formal education already - probably more than most people when they come to Tower. So that might've weighed in to raising her. Aside from Siuan's ulterior motives ...
     
  13. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    I love these Egwene chapters. Rand just stomps around and bullies people into doing what he wants, for the most part, but Egwene has to play a different game. Later when Elayne is working to become queen, it's a third method. I think these books have made me look at politicians differently...so many times the leaders have to bully or trick people into doing what's best. :look
     
  14. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    Chapter 9:
    -Skimming can be used from a place you don't know to one you do. With Traveling you really need to know the place where you are.
    -Egwene thinks Alanna acts strangely. Impetuously. She wonders if there's some deeper motive. We certainly see how impetuous she is when she bonds Rand.
    -Egwene hears that Coiren and her embassy already left Caemlyn. Something seems wrong to Egwene about it, though she admits that Rand could easily have driven them away given how he acts toward Aes Sedai.
    -What were Alviarin's motives with that letter to Rand?

    Egwene does understand Rand better than some people. Though perhaps not quite as well as she thinks. Even so, she's right about that. She thinks she's the only one who can deal with him safely, though, which is naive. She hasn't spoken to him much lately. Elayne, Min, and Aviendh are in much better positions to understand him and 'deal with him'.

    -Egwene's noticed that Elayne likes to imitate curse words.

    Chapter 10:
    -I do rather like the Aiel philosophy of 'Do what you must, then pay the price for it." Then, once the payment is made, it's as if the wrong never was. It's not considered evil unless someone is unwilling to pay the price.
    -Egwene thinks her mother may not approve of Gawyn. Why? He's an Andoran prince! (though I realize he's kinda crazy...)
    -Ogier stedding can't be entered in tel'aran'rhiod. They have reflections, but you can't enter them.
    -The Wise Ones like to meet in the center of the Heart of Stone. Egwene is curious why. (I am as well; it seems like an odd choice for the Wise Ones)
    -Egwene Dreams about Mt making cannons.
    -The headsman's axe descending on Egwene and someone running to stop it. Gawyn saving Egwene from the bloodknives?
    -She sees Logain taking control of the Black Tower
    -A Golden Hawk. Tuon? Berelain?
    -A man dying on a narrow bed. I assume this is Rand.
    -A glowing object in a man's hand. Possibly Callandor.

    Chapter 11:
    -Some of the men remember seeing Halima near Marigan's tent, but no one thinks to remark on it. Because why would they?
    -Egwene thinks the Three Oaths hurt as much s they help.
    -The text with Lelaine/Romanda and their followers seems to mix up who's whose follower? :blink
    When they first come, Takima is with Lelaine and Varilin is with Romanda.
    Then later...
    Is this just a mistake in the ebook? :scratch
     
  15. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    Well, in fairness to Rand he is dealing with a much different group of people. Rand's situation is very reminiscent of Gilgamesh Wulfbachen in Girl Genius, where just after he literally killed an entire army with SCIENCE..people were still treating him like a useless little kid, if Rand does not rant and bully and act like a general mad man, none of the Tairens or Cairaihenians will actually follow his orders.

    The folks Egwene is dealing with are just trying to manipulate her into being a puppet, the folks Rand are dealing with will (literally in some cases) stab him right in the back the first moment he displays a hint of weakness, as well as the Aiel who would make me want to scream if I were Rand for entirely different reasons.
     
  16. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    The glowing thing seems likely to be Callandor, during the sealing of the bore
    The man - possibly Rand, but when did he lay dying, other than near the end, at which point it wasn't important he didn't die? When he was wounded by Fain perhaps?
     
  17. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    That tripped me up too! I thought I must just be reading it wrong and gave up on it. Is it actually a mistake?
     
  18. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    ACOS 12:

    Am I the only one who thinks that Lan, if he could see weaves of the power could take out a Channeler in 1 on 1 combat with just his sword? The speed described in his sword movements is arguably superhuman.

    ACOS 13:

    Can I just say I hate the Seafolk from here on out, from this book forwards they just do nothing good. “You need our help making the weather correct cause the dark one is screwing with the world” does NOT give you the upper hand in making the bargain, it makes you a jerk for not offering to help.

    ACOS 14:

    Do Caradin and Skane do anything in Ebou Dar? Later we see the black sisters going for the Cache of items of the one power, but does anything come of these two being here?

    ACOS 15:

    So what happens when two Forsaken give two different sets of Orders? It seems dark friends caught between the two of them are just screwed, which is bad organizational skills.

    ACOS 16

    So, we find out here that Mat has gotten a fancy for foxes because of his medallion. How does that not clash horribly with the fact he hates both the Snakes and Foxes through the red-stone Doorways?

    ACOS 17

    If Joline hates Elaida so much, why not join the rebels?
     
  19. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    I agree Ryu, the Sea Folk are just annoying and very non-helping. And has way WAY too much pride, much much worse than the Aiel...
    We will se a GREAT example of this when we get to Far Madding and the Sea Folk person who was dragged there by Cadsuane. I don't have any symphaty for her AT ALL, because her "problems" all come from arrogance and not seeing other cultures...
     
  20. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 12-16

    Yeah... I can kinda see where they're coming from with this 'bargain'. Nynaeve and Elayne were the ones who came asking the Sea Folk for help and, while of course it would be nice of them to just help (since this is the fate of the world we're talking about it and it helps out the Sea Folk just as much as anyone else!), their culture is so based around bargains that from their point of view, this is just another bargain. After this, though, my sympathies are at an end with the Sea Folk. :| They are so arrogant and rude and I really can't stand them when they're dealing with Aes Sedai and other non-Sea Folk off their ships. On my first readthrough, up until this point, I really liked them. The Sea Folk we've seen are... rude at times, but no more than a lot of groups are rude to each other in WoT. :p And it was interesting learning about how their society is set up. But after this... pretty much everything Ida said.