Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: To the End!

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Prologue-Ch 2

    Good PR can only go so far when you actively work to kneecap that image at every turn :p
     
  2. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Prologue-Ch 2

    Hmmm, speaking of all the Aes Sedai groups trying to control Egwene makes me think of the last books description of Rand being shielded by six Aes Sedai. Six points trying to keep him under control, while 3 or more. Prolly nothing but an interesting thought :look
     
  3. Murun

    Murun

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Prologue-Ch 2

    @ Maibella Rhiden and Megana Vallentin - re Danelle:
    She turns up in TSR ch. 47 in connection with Elaida's coup and we do not see any relevant changes in her behavior, so one should guess she was Mesaana all along.
    On a closer look, infiltrating the Tower in this way, as a sister, is quite a feat - so to pun, Mesaana had the DO's luck to bring it off. Just consider the task: Aes Sedai are almost as well-documented as EU citizens, you cannot drop in out of the blue. The only realistic chance is to take someone's place - so find suitable victim (physical resemblance, mirror of mist only for small changes; handicap: you have no ageless face, must be a recently raised one, which narrows down the choice) study her closely, take on her mannerisms etc. (remember Thom: looks like Cadsuane, but doesn't walk like her, gets knife in back). And then, unlike Marigan in Salidar, you really mustn't hide your ability to channel - but can you hide your strength?
     
  4. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Prologue-Ch 2

    True but it must be easier if the Sister you choose is already a loner with no friends - far fewer people to notice any possible changes in her behavior. And I agree that she had likely been Mesaana since we first met her. Some of the other Forsaken had been in place for a long time, so why not her?

    I just finished chapter 2. Enter Dashiva, aka Osan'gar. It will be interesting to read about him this time knowing who he really is. I'll be paying far more attention to his character going forward.
     
  5. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Prologue-Ch 2

    In regards to he mannerisms thing, I doubt most Aes Sedai are as well trained in something like that as Thom is.

    AcoS Pro – So, question Just how tall is the tower? Was that in the compendium at all because Elaida makes it seem quite high up, however that has got to be very inconvenient for her to be that high. Imagine how long it would take a servant to get food up there without it being cold. We are not told of any dumbwaiters in existence in the setting so I imagine it is done by foot

    Also, wasn't there a line about servants going up the tower from outside? That screams to me to be a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE Safety issue when we start getting high up enough to splat.

    Also Regarding “send 50 sisters to clear the black tower” did Elaida even send a scout to see how many men that can channel there are?

    Nothing else here really matters in the long run, The White Cloaks are inept without Niall in charge, for all the guy's faults he was in the very least intelligent, Gawyn is a moron so if the creator were kind he would have died at Dumai's Well and saved us all the pain of the crap that goes on later, Ditto Savanna.

    Oh wait Gawyn is double stupid because he realizes that the Aes Sedai in charge were trying to kill him with the Aiel and he STILL HELPS THEM. Gawyn needs slapped, by an angry Ogier.

    Twice. No, Three times just to be safe.

    AcoS 1/2

    Not much here, Perrin gets a little annoying with his inner monologue about how “it isn't right” about having Aes Sedai imprisoned, and honestly I think that Rand took the best path he could, handing them to the Wise Ones, them becoming “apprentices” is probably the best solution. The Wise Ones do not have the awe for Aes Sedai that most wetlander have, they don't have the fear that most Aiel do, but they also do not have the hatred that Taim and the Ashaman have.

    AcoS 3

    Not much here.
     
  6. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    I looked up Danelle in the Companion, and it said she spent most of her time out the of Tower, being gone for years at a stretch and never staying in the Tower more than a few months. Mesaana looked enough like her that only small illusions were needed, and she Compulsed Danelle to give the information she'd need to go unnoticed. When "Danelle" returned to the Tower, she was actually Mesaana.
     
  7. Toral Delvar

    Toral Delvar Archivist Gaidin

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    It also said she masked her ability to channel, which was something I was curious about
     
  8. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Ah, so it does. I only read the Danelle entry. That's interesting -- I guess they can partially mask channeling ability then.
     
  9. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Prologue:
    -Elaida's plans for her palace are insane. She wants it to be even taller than Ogier-built buildings. That sounds dangerous. :blink
    -She actually asks (demands?) that Ogier come and make the palace for her!
    -Elaida trusts Galina (Black Ajah) more than anyone.
    -Elaida wonders if Alviarin knows about Rand's kidnapping. She probably does since there were Black Ajah in the group who kidnapped him.
    -One of Elaida's figurines is a woman with what sounds like a monkey on her shoulder. An animal that Elaida assumes was 'some fantasy of the carver'
    -The minimum penalty for rebels involves a public penance of a year and a day. Perhaps this custom and the custom of Gai'shain come from the same source. The Aiel used to serve the Aes Sedai after all.
    -Elaida's Foretelling really does sound like Elaida's plans will work out perfectly. It's impressive how misleading it is. As annoying as Elaida is, it's totally understandable how she'd misinterpret this.
    -Do we ever learn much about what the 'Ajah' that Mesaana mentions? Was this a governing body of Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends?

    Chapter 1:
    -Perrin assumes that the Wise Ones don't have ageless faces since they don't use the Power enough.

    Chapter 2:
    -Rand has an insanely good memory if he's able to memorize all 151 names on his list of dead Maidens. :blink
    -The Aiel saw Gawyn to the north. They think he's hunting Aes Sedai and he apparently has found some Aes Sedai to join his group.
    -As irritating and... evil... as Taim turns out to be later, Rand really is pretty terrible to him.
    -Perrin notices Rand's scent changing constantly and is baffled. This sounds like he can smell Lews Therin's emotions as well.
    -Taim says Dashiva is gaining strength rapidly and has his head in the clouds. Does Taim know who Dashiva is? He tries to discourage Rand from choosing him.
    -I like how readily the Aiel accept Min's ability. Nandera sums it up: "Some can do things others cannot." :) What a reasonable way to see things. The Aiel are very refreshing sometimes.
    -Min sees blood in Taim's past and future
    -To Min, the Ashaman are gathering images like Aes Sedai. Although Min's ability doesn't have anything to do with using the One Power, there is at least some connection.
    -Hearing the name M'hael for the first time, my first reaction was a negative one. It has such evil connotations later in the series that it's weird to think that all anyone knows now is that it means 'leader' in the Old Tongue.
     
  10. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Who is Dashiva? :blink
     
  11. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Dashiva is Osan'Gar. We learn this in Winters Heart during the cleansing...
     
  12. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    :facepalm I haven't noticed that! :giggle Ah, no wonder...
     
  13. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Alviarin even muses on how dangerous the Foretelling is. I think it's her who thinks about prophecy and how no one actually knows what it means till the event is over, and sometimes not even then.

    I thought about this too. We have two options: Taim knows Dashiva is Forsaken, or he doesn't. If he knows, then he wants Dashiva near him to show how good of work he (Taim) is doing and to win favor. If he doesn't know, then he wants Rand to have one of his (Taim's) people near him, someone Taim can trust to report back accurately, which Dashiva won't (due to his head in the clouds).

    I wonder if it's because people who use the Power and who are set apart (like Aes Sedai and Asha'man are) tend to influence events more. Wise Ones who use the Power could also be said to be set apart, but then you have Wise Ones who can't channel, so the channeling ones aren't as apart as Aes Sedai and Asha'man.
     
  14. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Prologue - Elaida

    • Elaida is having a palace built for herself because the Amyrlin's rooms aren't grand enough. She doesn't understand that you have greater power if you live and work in the same place as the people you lead. Plus sh wants her palace to have a spire higher than the Tower. She's going to get someone killed.
    • Elaida thinks her rooms simple while they are gilded and luxurious to the max.
    • Alviarin has small ways of embarrassing Elaida.
    • Elaida doesn't believe the rumor s about Morgase and the Whitecloaks.
    • The Royal House of Andor held the key to winnin gthe Last Battle -- Rand.
    • Elaida called 3 Reds from exile and gives one of them, Toveine, head of the Black Tower amnesty. Is Toveine Black? Alviarin decides that she won't send any Black Ajah members to the Black Tower, but Elaida chose Toveine.
    • Elaida is unwilling to listen to reports and accounts and simply goes on what "must" be true.
    • And she sends 50 sisters to the Black Tower -- 1/6 of her people.
    • The Chronicles only record 16/24 men in the last 20 years who were gentled.
    • I don't understand the prejudice against wilders. All it really means is that the ability was inborn, right? That the woman would absolutely channel? Is it because they didn't choose to learn? Is that why channelers look down on wilders?
    • Elaida wants to save the world -- but for her own glory, not for the actual saving.

    Sevanna

    • Sevanna is a lot like Elaida.

    Alviarin

    • We start seeing Sisters wearing their shawls in the hallways. Has Elaida demoted anyone yet?
    • Everyone is afraid of Elaida.
    • Alviarin of Elaida: "[O]nly after a time did you realize that for all her brains, she saw only what she wanted to see, would try to make true what she wanted to be true. Of the two indisputably frightening things about her, the lesser was that what she so often succeeded."
    • Alviarain hesitates to kill Elaida without orders or permission.
    • Interesting: Keeper quarters are around the 10th floor while the Amyrlin's regular quarters are about the 2nd.
    • Alviarin is the Head of the Black Ajah.
    • Al figures out that Mesaana is in the Tower.
    • Al worries that Elaida could reveal the Black Ajah with the Foretelling.
    • Mesaana: "You children could almost match the ajah at times." ?????
    • Jarna was the previous Head of Black, and she had Tarna killed. Ishamael was not please. Jarna was caught in the hold of a ter'angreal no one knew the use of, and she screamed for 10 days.
    • The Black Ajah did not kill Sierin, Suian's predecessor.
    • Al resolves not to send Black sisters to the Black Tower.
    • Mesaana teaches Al Traveling.

    Niall

    • Niall does have respect for Morgase.
    • Niall is very old -- his first battle was 70+ years ago-- so he's at least in his 80s.
    • Omerna kills Niall, and Valda kills Omerna.

    Valda

    • Valda would have finished off Niall as well, but Asunawa stops him because Ass would have to tell the truth about what he saw.
    • Valda wants to crush the Dragonsworn, then get Andor from Morgase, then hand Morgase to the Questioners.
    • He's working with Asunawa, who probably had Omerna kill Valda (is this confirmed?).
    • What was the message from Tanchico? About the Seanchan?

    Gawyn

    • He suspected the plot to kill the Younglings.
     
  15. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Chapter 1

    • I looked up Coremanda in the Companion, and nothing.
    • As far as I can gather, the siswai'aman are jealous that Rand came from Miadens, and that Maidens claimed him. They want some kind of claim on him too.
    • Aram wants to kill the Aes Sedai.
    • Perrin's starting to feel the first real pangs of discomfort with the axe.

    Chapter 2

    • Aiel are buried standing upright facing east.
    • Aram is well and truly gone. :(
    • I dislike the way Jordan uses "farmwife" as shorthand for "homely" as if nobles can't be ugly and farmwives can't be beautiful. This is one place where I think he's lazy.
    • Perrin is there for his friend (Rand). He listens to Rand even though he doesn't want to.
    • The Old Tongue is twitching at Perrin's memory -- the Old Blood is singing.
    • Perrin smells Lews Therin trying to come out to play when Rand is talking to Taim.
    • Did Rand have a reason to choose Dashiva?
     
  16. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    About the Aiel being buried upright, that has always seemed strange to me.
    Do you know how long it would take to dig all those graves! I mean, the Aiel are a tall people, they will have to dig DEEP. :blink
     
  17. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    According to Wikipedia, some cultures buried warriors in an upright position. Which cultures, dunno.

    Wait: searching Google found this. West Central Africa, rarely. Ireland. Lots in Ireland. Bagos (Gold Coast of Africa?), the head of family was.

    Luckily, at Dumai's Wells, they had lots of Power users (men particularly) who could dig the graves.
     
  18. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    It looks like Toveine isn't Black Ajah. From what I can find online, she was turned in the Black Tower, but didn't start off Black Ajah.

    Yeah, this bothers me as well. He does the same thing with the word 'farmer'. Saying that various nobles or Aes Sedai look like farmers or farmwives.

    It sounded to me like he just chose Dashiva randomly. (ta'veren?) And then, when he saw how Taim was pushing for Rand to choose anyone but Dashiva, that solidified that it was a good choice. He doesn't trust Taim so if Taim doesn't want Rand to have Dashiva then it must be a good choice for Rand.
     
  19. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Oh yeah, ta'veren. :facepalm OF COURSE he'd choose the Forsaken. :lol
     
  20. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re-Readalong: A Crown of Swords: Chapters 3-8

    Good catch Kassina. This makes a lot of sense actually.