Questions?

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Al'Amar El'Haldir, May 25, 2016.

  1. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    I searched for a thread where one could ask questions about WoT stuff; but didn't find one. If there is an older thread for questions, please refer me to it. If not, here are the questions that made me start this thread:

    1- Did Arafel fall in the Last Battle like Kandor? Of were Arafellans able to defend their capital and keep it from being destroyed?

    2- Did the Shadow take Maradon eventually? Or did Rand's destruction of the Shadow army there leave it standing till the end?

    3- How long did Elayne and Rand spend together in Tear (after Egwene handed him over)? I remember 4 days; but not sure.

    4- Demandred was a general for the 10 years spanning the War of Power/Shadow? Aside from studying and reading about war, the 10 years are his only battlefield experience, right?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  2. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

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    I don't know any of answers to this. But I wonder if you have checked the library?
     
  3. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thank you Imzadi Sedai :) I'll check the library; and hope to find answers. But I think a couple of those questions don't have a specific book reference to warrant Brown Ajah approval.
     
  4. Tobias Carawin

    Tobias Carawin Citizen

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    1- Did Arafel fall in the Last Battle like Kandor? Of were Arafellans able to defend their capital and keep it from being destroyed?

    In A Memory Of Light: Chubain set up a command camp in a valley on the border of Kandor and Arafel. He had a harrying force that would strike hard against oncoming trollocs. Odds were that they would be pushed back into Arafel. Pg. 200-221 (Digital version)

    Later, The white tower fought on the border of Arafel pg. 515 (Digital Version)

    In Towers Of Midnight Egwene says that Kandor, Saldaea, and Arafel are swarming with shadowspawn. Pg. 437 (Digital version)


    So there is nothing conclusive in my quick research that says their capital (Shol Arbela) fell.




    2- Did the Shadow take Maradon eventually? Or did Rand's destruction of the Shadow army there leave it standing till the end?


    Maradon is in ruins and is not defensible now that there is a major hole in its wall.




    3- How long did Elayne and Rand spend together in Tear (after Egwene handed him over)? I remember 4 days; but not sure.

    Yes. 4 days



    4- Demandred was a general for the 10 years spanning the War of Power/Shadow? Aside from studying and reading about war, the 10 years are his only battlefield experience, right?

    Demandred went to the shadow in the third year of the war. He sometimes served as the governor over conquered territories but these times were short and he always returned to the battlefield.

    I would assume that he may have started learning military tactics only after the bore was drilled. from that point on until he was captured would be the sum of his age of legends training. After being released from the bore he probably focused on present day military tactics almost immediately.
     
  5. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thank you Tobias :) I appreciate your research and answers.

    Your answers helped me form a couple of opinions about Rand/Elayne and Demandred/Mat:

    - In AMoL, Rand said that Elayne taught him everything about being a leader; in a pitch to convince other monarchs to accept her as supreme commander of the forces of Light. I feel that there is a grave inconsistency there; since there only other meeting after the 4 days in Tear were not spent on Monarch Training (in the classic sense of the word :p ). Four days are not enough to teach him everything there is to know about ruling especially since Moiraine spent weeks/months drilling him about how to rule. He even admitted that when he took Cairhien and took the oaths of the people there: "Moiraine would have been proud." (or whatever he said when he outmaneuvered all the Lords and Ladies. Secondly, LTT memories (as evidenced by his meeting with Tuon) give him more insight on ruling that 4 days of kissing interrupted by chats on governance.
    - Demandred's battlefield experience is 12 years maximum. Reading books doesn't count :) How does that give him such a huge edge over anyone with a lifetime of battlefield experience and leadership like the Great Captains, Seanchan generals, or Randland military commanders. Mat's memories give him so much more experience. I think Demandred was the Shadow's top general; but wasn't a general who collected "centuries" worth of battlefield experience, as stated in AMoL.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  6. Almira ni'Caldazare

    Almira ni'Caldazare Citizen

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    Elayne and Rand must have talked more after the stone of Tear... Both Rand and Elayne quote Garath Bryne and Queen Morgase.
     
  7. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thank you for reviving this conversation, Almira :)

    After Tear, Elayne went to Tanchico, Amadicia, Salidar, Ebou Dar, Caemlyn. After those 4 days in Tear, the only meeting pre-Fields of Merrilor was in Lily in Winter; where they gave each other a different kind of education after the bonding. I'm pretty sure that Elayne's 4 days in Tear were the only time she could have taught him anything about governance.

    BTW, is the above stuff required in (spoiler tags)? Or does the 1-14 thread allow spoilers in all books to be open-source? :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2016
  8. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    It was more than 4 days in Tear, quite some time passed between book 3 and 4.

    And no, no spoiler tags needed for this forum as long as it pertains to stuff in the main saga :)
     
  9. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thank you for the clarification regarding spoiler tags :)

    As to Elayne; she spent more than 4 days in Tear; but most of it was spent on questioning the prisoner Black Sisters (Joiya and another) and pursuing their Black Ajah hunt. Moiraine kept Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne busy with that and then shipped them off to Tanchico to remove all people of influence from around Rand. Egwene handed Rand to Elayne after their "lesson" where they tried to teach him about using the power. From that lesson till Elayne's departure, the time was only 4 days.
     
  10. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Well, it is amazing what you can learn in 4 days ;)
     
  11. Ninya Evoneigh

    Ninya Evoneigh Super Cool Kid Aes Sedai

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    Also keep in mind that Elayne's actions as both an Aes Sedai and as Queen of Andor were not exactly subtle or a secret, and Rand was the Dragon Reborn with access to a vast network of informants. She may not have been sitting on his knee TELLING him how to lead, but years / months of watching her actions would be plenty educational on its own, and more than warrants acknowledgement.
     
  12. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Yes, that is true :)
    The Companion says they canoodled just short of making love. That was a new experience for Rand :lol



    I don't doubt Elayne's skills as a ruler. She was trained as Daughter-Heir by a very good queen. She had tutors, mentors, etc ... who groomed her for years in preparation for her future role.

    My pick is against Rand saying that she taught him how to be a leader. He learned much more from others (Moiraine mainly), his leadership in the Waste and Randland, and when he embraced his LTT memories. He had the full memories and experience of the absolute leader of the Light in the Age of Legends. Practically centuries worth of leadership.

    Another worthy mention is Rand's praise of Min; saying she could be a queen in her own right if she chose to be. That praise was not born of any real leadership action by Min; just his own praise for the dedicated woman who kept him sane.

    As to Elayne's actions as Aes Sedai and Queen, there is a difference between both with regards to Monarch Training. Nothing she did in Tanchico, Amadicia, Salidar, and Ebou Dar (even if full detailed reports reached Rand) indicated exceptional leadership. And Elayne relied on Nynaeve's leadership as much as on her own. She was a member of a special unit (a handful) performing special field operations to rescue individuals or locate artifacts; or being a good accepted in Salidar by teaching lessons, making ter'angreal, interrogating Moghedien, and cleaning pots.

    Again, Elayne turned out to be a very good queen; no denying that. But she didn't teach Rand what it is to be a leader.

    The same for Demandred and his battlefield genius. He was a general for a decade or maybe 12 years. But he reflects on battle leadership skills that require centuries of experience to acquire. It just doesn't connect with me and my current understanding the books and context.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2016
  13. Ninya Evoneigh

    Ninya Evoneigh Super Cool Kid Aes Sedai

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    I think you are discounting the value of learning by observation. You can learn what NOT to do as well as what TO do, simply by watching someone, and both are equally valuable in forming a final opinion and course of action.
     
  14. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Ninya Sedai, I don't think that learning by observation is irrelevant. I just don't think Rand observed Elayne's leadership from afar at all. He didn't know where she was till the later half of book 6. After that, the books make it clear that he didn't observe anything till "Lily in Winter." And from then on, he went on to be Darth-Rand for a few books; where even Nynaeve and Cadsuane (quite a few lvls above Elayne and Nynaeve in leadership and wisdom) didn't have any impact on him.

    He did learn things from Elayne, during their 4 days in Tear. And she was instrumental in helping Rand put the High Lords off balance and pass good laws. She is a leader to the core. But in my opinion, she didn't teach Rand what it is to be a leader. He was just pitching her to other monarchs as supreme leader of the Light's forces, to ensure the Dragon's Peace is signed.
     
  15. Almira ni'Caldazare

    Almira ni'Caldazare Citizen

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    I have a sort of off topic question:
    Is Thom's harp magic?
    Is it a ter'amgreal?
     
  16. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    I haven't come across any reference or opinion that points to that, Almira.
     
  17. Almira ni'Caldazare

    Almira ni'Caldazare Citizen

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    Another off topic question:
    Who was the man who helped Rand in Shadar Logoth when he went after Sammael in book 7?
    Rand could not feel the man channeling so that makes me think it's the forsaken but why save Rand?
    Theory land has different guesses about who the man could be but a forsaken is the only thing that makes since to me!
     
  18. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    The man in Shadar Logoth was Moridin; and he was channeling the True Power. I don't remember if the link between them was initiated when their balefire streams collided or before that. But they had a bond; and were drawn to each other. In AMoL, Moridin stabbed his own hand to make Rand drop Callandor.
     
  19. Polegnyn Nemeara

    Polegnyn Nemeara Aes Sedai

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    So in conducting an informal group reread of my own, one person asks how Tam knew Morgase was alive (TGS, bottom of page 735, hardbacks) and shared that news with Rand. However, we don't read of Morgase revealing her identity to everyone in Perrin's camp until the following book, ToM. Is this the simple case of RJ being unable to write concurrent events, or did we miss something else completely?

    Eta: Or was this intentionally written as such to be used as a cliffhanger detail to get us to Perrin's POV immediately following Tam's revelation to Rand?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
  20. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    It was a matter of one plot-line being ahead of another in writing, not in time. Sanderson cut off at Rand's Dragonmount experience. In a way, Sanderson was juggling the many open plot lines, especially the main ones, and trying to close them and bring them together for the last book. And even that wasn't complete; since the resolution of the Black Tower was supposed to happen before the last book, if I remember correctly.