Olver?

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Still it is nice to have such a convenient source for information. If I want quotes about something I can just post something glaringly wrong and then wait for Axis to come along.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Deliberate mistakes definitely earn a trouting

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

I, too, can wield the fishes!

 

[Midian Venamar]

I mean RJ is clearly the final say on things like this ... but what he says doesn't follow some of the evidence. Specifically, what's the deal with her saying that Daved Hanlon will have "more" rapes in his future? If she can see that it will be more, clearly she can see that he has them in his past.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Darlin and Caraline had vanished into the crowd along with their followers, yet as a bowing serving man with stripes of red, green and white on his dark cuffs offered a tray of silver goblets to Rand and Min, she reappeared, shaking off the importunings of a hatchet-faced fellow in one of those red coats. He glared at her back as she took a goblet of punch and waved the servant away, and Min’s breath caught at the aura that suddenly flashed around him, bruised hues so dark they seemed nearly black.

"Don’t trust that man, Lady Caraline." She could not stop herself. "He will murder anyone he thinks is in his way; he’ll kill for a whim, kill anybody." She clamped her teeth shut before saying more.

Caraline glanced over her shoulder as the hatchet-faced man turned away abruptly. "I could believe it easily of Daved Hanlon," she said wryly. "His White Lions fight for gold, not Cairhien, and loot worse than the Aiel. Andor became too hot for them, it seems." That with an arch glance at Rand. "Toram has promised him a great deal of gold, I think, and estates I know." She tilted her eyes up to Min. "Do you know the man, Jaisi?"

Min could only shake her head. How to explain what she did know about Hanlon now, that his hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died? If she had known when or who... But all she knew was that he would. Anyway, telling about a viewing never changed it; what she saw happened, no matter who she warned. Sometimes, before she had learned better, it had happened because she warned.

She does indeed sometimes seem to gain some kind of "overall impression" of a person from a viewing. The viewings are related to the future for sure, but there does seem to be at least some aspect of the persons past and personality about them too.

It's almost like there are different kind of viewings, I mean there's a big difference between seeing a dark aura around Hanlon which seems to tell her he's a murderer/rapist. That's very general kind of information when say compared to a viewing around Mat of a ruby hilted dagger. In which he literally finds a ruby hilted dagger in his future.

Same kind of thing where Min sees the sparks around the group, that's a very general thing, while say the Hawks/falcon on perrin is very specific.

Look how she describes one viewing of Rand

As always to her eyes, images and colourful auras flickered around him, most gone too quickly to make out, all but one meaningless to her at the moment. That one viewing came and went a hundred times a day, and whenever Mat or Perrin were present, it encompassed them, too, and sometimes others. A vast shadow lurked over him, swallowing up thousands upon thousands of tiny lights like fireflies that hurled themselves into it in an attempt to fill up the darkness. Today, there seemed to be countless tens of thousands of fireflies, but the shadow seemed larger, too. Somehow that viewing represented his battle with the Shadow, but he almost never wanted to know how it stood. Not that she could really say, except that the Shadow always seemed to be winning, to one degree or another.

Its interesting she breaks up Images and Auras into separate items. She gets meanings always from both of them. But in someway, they are different, the auras are less specific. Logains aura of glory for instance. It's the future, but its damn vague.

Time for a big quote block I think for reference

TEotW,Ch15

The whole group - Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks. You are all tied together in something dangerous.
Egwene - She's part of it. You're in love with her. She loves you, too, but she's not for you, or you for her. Not the way you both want. When I look at her, I see the same as when I look at Mistress Alys. She won't refuse it.
Lan - Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.
Thom - A man—not him—juggling fire, and the White Tower.
Perrin - A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him.
Mat - A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face.
Rand - A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood, lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. You and I will meet again.
Rand - Min does not completely reveal her first viewing of Rand until TFoH,Ch50. (see below)

TEotW,Ch16

Nynaeve - She's part of it, right along with the rest of you.
The whole group - The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn't see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it's all sharper, and more furious. You're all in more danger today than yesterday. Since she came.

TGH,Ch24

Elayne - She will have to share her husband with two other women and she will be a queen. A severed hand, not hers.
Egwene - A white flame and other things.
Galad - He will always do what is right, no matter who it hurts.

TGH,Ch38

Galad - He will hurt someone to serve a greater good and not even notice.
Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne - "Danger. You are all in some kind of danger. Or you will be, very soon." And after they all decide to accompany Liandrin - "I think she has to come as much as the rest of you. The rest of us. I can see the danger around all of you more clearly, now."

TGH,Ch42

Egwene - "I've read you, Egwene.... I see things I am sure link you to Rand, and Perrin, and Mat, and - yes, even Galad."

TGH,Ch43

Nynaeve - "A man's ring of heavy gold floated above Nynaeve's head." It means trouble but it seems distant, somewhere in the future.
Elayne - "above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe." It means trouble but it seems distant, somewhere in the future.

TDR,Ch2

Leya - "The Tinker woman is going to die. I saw her own face floating over her shoulder, covered in blood, eyes staring."

TDR,Ch6

Perrin - "An Aielman in a cage. A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think."

TSR,Ch1

Ananda of the Yellow Ajah - a sickly brown halo, shriveled and split by rotting fissures that fell in and widened as they decayed.
One of the Green Ajah, small and fair-haired - on her shoulder sat a human skull. A small woman's skull, picked clean and sun-bleached.
A third Aes Sedai, plumply pretty, arrogant, cool, blue eyes - a tattered curtain of blood, crimson streamers running down her face.
All three will die on the same day.
An apple-cheeked Accepted - bars floated in front of her face like a cage.
Sheriam - her face seemed battered and bruised.
A Brown Ajah sister - her aura faded like a guttering candle flame.
Several Warders - bloody faces or gaping wounds. Swords and spears danced about their heads, threatening. Their auras flashed wildly, flickered on the knife edge of death.
Dead men walking - they would die on the same day as the Aes Sedai in the entry hall, or at most a day later.
Some of the servants - signs of violence.
Another Aes Sedai - chains in the air around her.
Yet another Aes Sedai - a silver collar around her neck.
Gawyn - streaks of dried blood had made his face a grim mask. He was going to be wounded on the day the Aes Sedai died. He was going to be hurt more than the blood told, hurt somehow deeper than wounds to his flesh.
Gawyn - that bloody mask again. More: a sword floated above his head, and a banner waved behind it. The long-hilted sword, like those most Warders used, had a heron engraved on its slightly curved blade, symbol of a blademaster, and Min could not say whether it belonged to Gawyn or threatened him. The banner bore Gawyn's sigil of the charging White Boar, but on a field of green rather than the red of Andor.
Leane - a transparent mask of her own face, a screaming mask.
Siuan - she was lying on the floor, naked. Aside from her being in only her skin, there was something odd about the image. She has no idea what it means.

TSR,Ch17

Logain - a flaring halo around his head, radiant in gold and blue. It shouted of glory and power to come.
A groom - he was stealing.
A fire-haired novice and a guard - they would be married soon. There was a farm in that pair's future, and a swarm of children.

TSR,Ch47

Gawyn - Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future. She had never seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities.
Siuan and Leane, after they are stilled ? She saw no images, no auras, around either; there were always images and auras around Aes Sedai.
Logain - that flaring halo of gold and blue shone about his head, speaking of glory to come.

TFoH,Ch1

Logain - a halo flared around his head, a radiant crown of gold and blue.

TFoH,Ch26

Sheriam - Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.
Carlinya - an image of a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know its meaning.
Edesina - a silvery collar suddenly appeared, snug around the woman's neck, and as suddenly seemed to shatter. She did not like viewings connected to the Seanchan. At least Edesina would escape somehow.

TFoH,Ch28

Gareth Bryne and Siuan Sanche - "When Bryne came in, I had a viewing. An aura, and a bull ripping roses from around its neck and... None of it matters except the aura. I didn't really understand that, but more than anything else. If you want to stay alive, you had better stay close to him. If he stays close to you, you live. If he gets too far away, for too long, you are going to die. Both of you. I don't know why I should have seen anything about you in his aura, but you seemed like part of it."

TFoH,Ch50

Faolain - "A nasty woman. You'd think, if there was any justice, she would have an unpleasant future ahead of her."
Marigan, Areina and Nicola - "Those three you brought with you are trouble."
Rand - Elayne says to Min, "You saw that we are going to fall in love." Min replies, "Not exactly. I saw you'd fall in love with him. I don't know what he feels for you, only that he's tied to you in some way." "And you saw there would be someone else. Someone I'd have to...share...him with." "Two. Two others. And....And I'm one."

LoC,Ch41

Enaila - A wreath of some sort; Min had no idea what it meant.
Rand - Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed. There seemed to be more lights than she had ever seen before, but the darkness swallowed them at a greater rate, too.
Rand - And there was something else, something new, an aura of yellow and brown and purple that made her stomach clench. "Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled."
Melaine - "You will have two daughters, twins like mirrors."

LoC,Ch46

Perrin - "He's found his falcon, and I wouldn't be surprised if she kills him when the hawk appears."
Rand and Perrin - "When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

LoC,Ch49

Bera and Kiruna - brownish yellow and deep purple. Later, talking to Rand - "It's the aura. Blood, death, the One Power, those two women and you, all in the same place at the same time."

LoC,Ch50

Colinda - "I saw - No. No, it doesn't have anything to do with you. (Rand) Maybe the heat is affecting me. When I know, I always know. It must be the heat."
Maringil was going to die by poison.
Colavaere would die by hanging.
Meilan would die by the knife.
Aracome and Maraconn and Gueyam were all going to die, too, bloody deaths, in battle, Min thought.
Berelain - "Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels."

ACoS,Ch2

Mazrim Taim - "He has blood in his past and blood in his future. He is a dangerous man."

ACoS,Ch33

Rand - "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

ACoS,Ch34

Speaking to Rand of Alanna, Bera, Faeldrin, Merana and Rafela - "They will keep their word. I just saw these five in your hand."
Harine - "You will be punished for what happens here today, Harine, but not so much as you fear, I think. At least, one day you will be the Mistress of the Ships."

ACoS,Ch35

Rand - What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?
Moiraine - Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.
Caraline and Darlin - auras of red and white flashed around her and Darlin, and Min knew. The colors never seemed to matter, but she knew that they would marry—after Caraline had led him a merry chase.
Darlin - a crown suddenly appeared on Darlin's head, a simple golden circlet with a slightly curved sword lying on its side above his brows. The king's crown he would wear one day, though of what country, she could not say. Tear had High Lords instead of a king.
Daved Hanlon - bruised hues so dark they seemed nearly black. His hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died.
Fain - She saw no auras around him.

ACoS,Ch36

Amys, Cadsuane and Dashiva - All with unreadable auras and images dancing around them.

ACoS,Ch41

Rand - "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

TPoD,Ch27

Caraline and Darlin - Darlin will die in bed and Caraline will survive him.

TPoD,Ch29

Nesune - She will found a library and receive honors and fame.
Beldeine - She will bond an Asha'man as Warder.
Sarene - She will have a tempestuous love affair.
Beldeine, Elza, Erian, Nesune, Sarene and Sorilea - They will all serve Rand, each in her fashion.

WH,Ch12

Elayne - "She'll get with child from this. Two of them; a boy and a girl; both healthy and strong."
Aviendha - Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.
Birgitte - Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

WH,Ch22

Alivia - Rand asks, "Have you had any viewings of her, Min?" Min replies, "All the time, but not the kind you mean, nothing I understand."

WH,Ch25

Alivia - "Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you." Rand replies, "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

CoT,Ch24

"Logain's aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever."
Davram Bashere - "And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram."

KoD,Ch18

Logain - Min still sees the aura of glory around him.

KoD,Ch21

Com and Doni - Min views something tragic about them.

TGS,Ch15

Rand - Fireflies consumed by darkness.
Rand - Three women before a pyre.
Rand - Flashes of light, darkness, shadow, signs of death, crowns, injuries, pain and hope.

TGS,Ch37

Rand - Dragonmount cloaked in dark shadows, as if shaded by clouds high above, with a tiny prick of light shining from the heavens down onto the point of the mountain.

TGS,Ch48

Nynaeve - She was kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief.
Beldeine - A black knife spun around her head

ToM,Ch13

Rand - An open cavern, gaping like a mouth.
Rand - Bloodstained rocks.
Rand - Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs.
Rand - A pipe with smoke curling from it.

ToM,Ch25

Dark clouds pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. Rand, a brilliant white sword held in his hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness.
Trees, growing healthy and full.
An inn in the Two Rivers with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door, a sign of victory and hope, not darkness or hate.
A silver axe, the man will be a leader in the Last Battle.
A woman will be trained in the White Tower and become Aes Sedai.
Another man will save her life.

ToM,Ch51

Rand - A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand.
Tenobia - a spear hovering over her head, bloody, but shining in the light
Ethenielle - white doves meaning that she will soon be wed
Easar and Paitar - swords, shields and arrows, they will fight soon

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

You know, the bit about her seeing blackness and sparks is interesting to me. If her viewings only related to the future I'm not sure why the visions would change with the proximity of the people in the group. I'm sure there's an argument that it's an indicator that they need to be working together or something, but obviously they have all had to go their separate ways to move things forward, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for that particular vision to constantly change with the presence of certain people.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Agreed, that's an odd one for sure.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Well, has she ever seen something that was presumably after the Last Battle?

 

[Midian Venamar]

A few ... if you read the post just a few up from yours you can see them ... Aviendha's babies for one; presumably the dragon's fang as a sign of hope rather than hate; and more.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Yes she has, however there's something to bring up when discussing Min's viewings post Last Battle that I want to make sure is out there.

They are not an indication of success in the LB.

Min basically sees impressions of the pattern to come. If the pattern in destroyed then her viewings are nullified.

So basically she's only capable of seeing a future in which Rand wins, however its not guaranteed for that future to actually occur.

"Well?" Corele set down her mending. "What does it matter? We're obviously going to succeed."

"Light!" Nynaeve said. "What gave you that idea?"

"We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions." Corele nodded to Min. "They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying."

"No," Min said. "You're wrong."

Corele frowned. "Child, are you saying that you lied about the things you've seen?"

"No," Min said. "But if Rand loses, there is no Pattern."

"The girl is correct." Cadsuane sounded surprised. "What this child sees are weavings in the Pattern from a time still distant—but if the Dark One wins, he will destroy the Pattern entirely. This is the only way the visions could fail to occur. The same holds for other prophecies and Foretellings. Our victory is by no means sure."

That stilled the room. They weren't playing at village politics or national dominance. At stake was creation itself.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Agreed, that's an odd one for sure.

I'm totally saving this thread for posterity!

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Actually, I can think of another way her viewings might not come to pass...
Balefire.
Balefire basically takes a thread out of the pattern, before someone did something. If she sees something, but later that person is Balefired, then he might not have had a chance to do whatever it was that he supposedly did later.
I think the basic idea is that a person's life is woven into the pattern much before he's actually alive. For example, the pattern already placed the threads for someone's children, before they are born.
Now the thing with her vision about the three heroes can be explained by what you said earlier - if she sees the future pattern, but the pattern after the LB might still be destroyed, then perhaps her viewing is about the future, of the pattern. If the three are apart, the pattern is destroyed. If they are together, it doesn't. The way it works is like a candle. The pattern after the LB is difficult to see into, because it's not sure it'll be there. It's clouded by a fog. When you have one candle, it's hard to see. When you have 3 the pattern itself did not change, but it's easier to see now through the fog.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

I think I basically get what you're saying, Aulrick, but I'm not sure it explains the changeablility of the vision based on people's proximity to each other.

For example, once Siuan and Gareth were seen together, Min saw that they need to stay together in order to stay alive. But once she saw that vision, to the best of my knowledge, the vision didn't change if they were not in proximity with each other. I could be wrong on that.

But the sparks thing seems to change whenever the major players are around each other. Some to a lesser extent than others.