New Stuff Found upon Re-read

[Toral Delvar]

I just finished my reread of Eye of the World this morning. A few things really stuck out to me- I almost wish I had just carried around a piece of paper to jot down notes and such while I read!

One of the first things that really stuck out to me was how early on in the book, when Lan was giving a warning about wolves right before the group left the Two Rivers, Perrin was the one who was most nervous about the idea of meeting wolves. None of the others reacted as strongly as he did.

Also, I did not realize how much the book set up the rest of the series, particularly with the setting. At first read, there were just so many new places mentioned in passing that I had forgotten them when they were introduced more solidly later in the series. Or, the mention of the Maidens of the Spear. Things that become important later in the series, but don't play too much of a role in the first book or so.

And, at the very end of the book, when Rand is talking with Egwene, he is assuring her he would never touch the Source again. The tells her he wouldn't touch it, "Not if I have to cut off my own hand first." Sounds like additional foreshadowing there!

I don't think I spotted either of those
If you are interested in what we have in the library
http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=The_Eye_of_the_World:_Prologue
contains basic notes, no spoilers, so no forshadowing, no explanation of mysteries, generally won't say if something is relavant to a plotline that comes up later
http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=The_Eye_of_the_World:_Annotated_Prologue
has more examples of forshadowing where seen, but I'll do a look when I get home and try and add the ones you mentioned

 

[Kitan Tataru]

I did notice Perrin was the one who was upset when Lan mentioned wolves. I'll probably have more to add to this once I get back to EotW...reading prologue of AMoL at the moment

 

[Midian Venamar]

I think it kind of makes sense to have Perrin more afraid of wolves in the beginning. He's really the most "city boy" of the three of them. Rand lives herding sheep, so he's got to fight off at least a few wolves a year I'd imagine. Mat essentially works for his dad in the horse business, but he's out and about as much as he can, getting into mischief. Perrin spends all day in a forge contemplating the meaning of life, and only really ever goes out when Mat and Rand pull him into it.

I do like the point about Rand saying he would cut off his own hand before he touched the source again ... specifically since it was the True Power that he touched just after he lost a hand.

 

[Avelina Ermen]

Oh, my goodness! I am going to have to read the annotated version of each and every chapter summary now. That is fantastic! It has been a long time since I've wanted to pull out my old English Teacher Persona and go to town on some books, so poking about annotations will be wonderful!

I completely forgot about Perrin's status of the more "city-fied" of the three boys. That really would make sense with his jitters about the wolves.

 

[Tehmpus]

I ran into another odd occurrance in my re-read, err listen. I'm still in, The Great Hunt, yet something has been puzzling me. When Padon Fain escapes Fal Dara, he is pulled in two different directions. The Myrdraal wishes to take him to the Blight, yet he wishes to go to Toman Head. Even before he left Fal Dara, Fain left a message scrawled in blood telling Rand that they will meet again on Toman Head. In Cairhien, Fain left a message with the darkfriend Lord Barthanes once again telling Rand that he would await him on Toman Head.

But why? Padon Fain no longer serves the dark one, nor considers himself a darkfriend at this point. So, I don't really see why he would feel the need to travel accross the entire continent through the Ways in order to meet up with Rand. It serves the pattern, but it doesn't serve Padon Fain.

Plus, I feel stronger about my theory about Padon Fain and the Black Wind. The Black Wind absorbs souls which we discover when the ogier show off a treesinger who had the misfortune of having a brush with Machin Shin. So, I think when Padon Fain originally met up with the Black Wind, it attempted to absorb it's soul, then recoiled at finding a soul blacker and darker than its own multi-souled existance. However, it did absorb a part of Fain's soul. That's why it's able to follow Rand around, and sit there waiting whenever he's about to enter a waygate. It now has the same compulsion to follow Rand, Mat, and Perrin that Fain has.

 

[tjwillmsn]

I missed out, on the various re-reads, that Verin (in TGH) went chasing after the boys on her own, but telling them that Moraine sent her. Dang.... finding out that tidbit later on - even if it was a piece of brilliance - was astounding.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

I missed out, on the various re-reads, that Verin (in TGH) went chasing after the boys on her own, but telling them that Moraine sent her. Dang.... finding out that tidbit later on - even if it was a piece of brilliance - was astounding.

That lie was pretty much the point at which most of us worked out that she was at best not bound by the Three Oaths, and at worst Black.

It's a flat out lie.

I ran into another odd occurrance in my re-read, err listen. I'm still in, The Great Hunt, yet something has been puzzling me. When Padon Fain escapes Fal Dara, he is pulled in two different directions. The Myrdraal wishes to take him to the Blight, yet he wishes to go to Toman Head. Even before he left Fal Dara, Fain left a message scrawled in blood telling Rand that they will meet again on Toman Head. In Cairhien, Fain left a message with the darkfriend Lord Barthanes once again telling Rand that he would await him on Toman Head.

But why? Padon Fain no longer serves the dark one, nor considers himself a darkfriend at this point. So, I don't really see why he would feel the need to travel accross the entire continent through the Ways in order to meet up with Rand. It serves the pattern, but it doesn't serve Padon Fain.

Plus, I feel stronger about my theory about Padon Fain and the Black Wind. The Black Wind absorbs souls which we discover when the ogier show off a treesinger who had the misfortune of having a brush with Machin Shin. So, I think when Padon Fain originally met up with the Black Wind, it attempted to absorb it's soul, then recoiled at finding a soul blacker and darker than its own multi-souled existance. However, it did absorb a part of Fain's soul. That's why it's able to follow Rand around, and sit there waiting whenever he's about to enter a waygate. It now has the same compulsion to follow Rand, Mat, and Perrin that Fain has.

Good question,

And I'm happy to say I have an answer for you.

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)
Week 10 Question

In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?
Robert Jordan

A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.
Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.

Couple of Fain / Black Wind quotes for you too

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)
Question

What is Fain?
Robert Jordan

Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The Black Wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.
QUESTION

Is this the "Another Power"?
ROBERT JORDAN

[laugh] I don't know.

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)
Question

In The Great Hunt when Rand, Mat and Perrin are trying to enter the Ways, Machin Shin is waiting there for them. It seems like Padan Fain has been waiting there for them. Is Machin Shin in any way related to the evil of Shadar Logoth?
Robert Jordan

In some ways. Machin Shin is linked or you might say drawn to that. It's not a matter of linked, but more attracted by. In much the same ways as I spoke about the evils being attracted to one another due to opposite polarities. (Shadar Logoth and the taint)

In the same way there is an attraction because Machin Shin was created in effect by the taint. It grew out. You can see is at a fungus that was constructed with the wrong type of materials. If you think about it as that way you get a more idea about its true nature.

 

[Kitan Tataru]

You're awesome, Axis I almost forgot the RJ Q&As existed!

 

[Tehmpus]

Interesting post Axis. I guess that does answer my question about Fain's reason for going to Toman Head if he managed to torture a Myrdraal before leaving Fal Dara. I guess that I just didn't get the impression that he had a whole lot of time for that sort of thing in his escape.

As for dark prophecy, I don't think that it is any less valid than light prophecy as long as it is unaltered. There seem to be multiple ways of peeking into the future in RJs world, but most of it is done through foretelling, and there are obviously Black Ajah Aes Sedai pretty much everywhere it seems.

I guess in response to what you posted about the Myrdraal having been left instructions to write the dark prophecy; I have to wonder why. If you've got info on the future, why share it with your enemies? Demoralization? Oh well. The re-read continues.

 

[Midian Venamar]

Tehmpus, I that makes a lot of sense with the wind absorbing part of Fain's soul. And I think part of the reason Fain went to Toman head was the pull (or push, if you will) of the Pattern. If not that, maybe he read the dark prophecies and knew that it was bound to happen anyways.

*just realized that I didn't read the next page of posts :P *

 

[Kitan Tataru]

Some interesting stuff from chapter 15 of EotW:

Min talks to Rand for the first time at the inn in Baerlon and tells her about her viewings of him and the other members of the group (Moiraine and Lan are consealing their identities as AS & Warder)...

(Rand) "What do you see when you look at...the rest of us?"

"All sorts of things," Min said, with a grin as if she knew what he really wanted to ask. "The War...ah...Master Andra has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword and..." She shook her head. "Men like him - you understand? - have always so many images they crowd one another. The strongest images around the gleeman are a man - not him - juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn't make any sense at all for a man. The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him. And the other one - a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face. There are other things, but you see what I mean. This time I can't make any up or down out of it." She waited then, still grinning, until he finally cleared his throat and asked.

"What about me?"

Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood - "

"All right," he broke in uneasily. "You don't have to list it all."

"Most of all, I see lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. I don't know what any of it means, except for one thing. You and I will meet again." She gave him a quizzical look, as if she did not understand that either.

"Why shouldn't we?" he said. "I'll be coming back this way on my way home."

"I suppose you will, at that." Suddenly her grin was back, wry and mysterious, and she patted his cheek. "But if I told you everything I saw, you'd be as curly-haired as your friend with the shoulders."

RJ definitely planned ahead!!

I want to break this down a little...

The War...ah...Master Andra has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword and...

That's obviously Malkier around Lan...

The strongest images around the gleeman are a man - not him - juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn't make any sense at all for a man.

A man who is not Thom juggling fire...I would say that could be Mat, but I think Min would have realized if it was since she'd already met Mat. The White Tower makes more sense after book 13, with him saying he'll marry and bond Moiraine.

The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him.

Wolf obviously makes sense for Perrin. The broken crown could be the Broken Crown of Saldaea (http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Saldaea#The_Throne). That could mean that Perrin will become king through Faile, but then he wouldn't die at Tarmon Gai'don, which to me right now it looks like he may.

As for trees flowering...I don't know. Could that be something Ogier-related (treesinging)?

And the other one - a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face.

Mat...red eagle of Manetheren (though that doesn't make as much sense since Perrin was the one to resurrect the red eagle banner), sacrificing his eye to save Moiraine (give up half the light of the world to save the world), Shadar Logoth dagger, and...well, he does laugh a lot, but could that viewing mean something different?

A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood -

Rand: Callandor, crown of Illian. I don't know what the beggar's staff would refer to - maybe Rand wandering from town to town while going to Tear for Callandor? Pouring water on sand would have something to do with him leading the Aiel out of the Waste or creating the lake in Rhuidean. Bloody hand and a white-hot iron - would that be how he was branded with the heron ("twice and twice he shall be marked, twice to live and twice to die")? Black rock wet with blood, that would be his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul...

And the interesting one. Three women standing over a funeral bier with him on it. That's the cover image that Darrell K. Sweet was working on for AMoL when he died.

People have assumed that the three women would be Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. But Min never sees herself in the viewings...so that means it can't be her. Right?

And Moiraine says something interesting in chapter 16 that I can't quite figure out. This is when Nynaeve turns up at the inn in Baerlon and confronts them (kind of) in the private dining room.

"There are many dangers from which I cannot protect them," Moiraine agreedk, "any more than you can protect them from being struck by lightning if they go home. But it is not lightning of which they must be afraid, nor even Whitecloaks. It is the Dark One, and minions of the Dark One. From those things I can protect. Touching the True Source, touching saidar, gives me that protection, as it does to every Aes Sedai." Nynaeve's mouth tightened skeptically. Moiraine's voice grew tighter, too, with anger, but she went on, her voice hard on the edge of patience. "Even those poor men who find themselves wielding the Power for a short time gain that much, though sometimes touching saidin protects, and sometimes the taint makes them more vulnerable. But I, or any Aes Sedai, can extend my protection to those close by me. No Fade can harm them as long as they are as close to me as they are right now. No Trolloc can come within a quarter of a mile without Lan knowing it, feeling the evil of it. Can you offer them half as much if they return to Emond's Field with you?"

I assumed at first that Moiraine was talking about how she can use the Power to defend herself and others against Shadowspawn, but then I thought maybe she's saying that just touching saidar gives protection from the DO, a kind of shield or something. If that were true, how would Darkfriend AS be possible? And channeling Forsaken?

 

[Tehmpus]

I've got a lot of answers for most of the stuff you brought up Kitan; however, you did stumble accross a few of the unanswered things that interest me.

First, I think Moiraine meant that touching the true source allows her to protect herself and others in various ways. She can sense shadowspawn coming before they get close. She can set powerful wards that can outright kill certain shadowspawn. But most importantly, she can shield their dreams from intrusion by channelling spirit while she sleeps. There are other ways at her disposal as well, but I think those are the main ones she was referring to.

Ok, now with that original Min viewing, I think most of us (me included) interpreted them incorrectly the first time we saw them. Just remember that Min's ability to view the pattern is always looking forward into the future. She doesn't look backward into the past.

"seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword" This sounds obvious, but the baby isn't Lan. I think most people assume that the baby in the cradle will be Lan & Nynaeve's eventual child, and that Malkier will be reclaimed.

Mat's viewing is pretty much throughly explained except the "laughing face".

The one that most interests me actually is Thom's viewing: "a man - not him - juggling fire, and the White Tower". This, I originally felt was something about Owen his dead nephew, but once again Min doesn't look backward, she looks forward. I think the juggling fire comment generally was Jordan's way of describing novices (ie juggling balls of light for the women). So, it could potentially mean that Thom will have a child by Moiraine who will eventually join the Tower? This is another unanswered one currently, but it interests me.

Perrin's viewing is all pretty much answered as well except the last bit about "trees flowering all around him" which I tend to think means that he will be directly involved somehow in healing the Blight.

 

[Tehmpus]

Tehmpus, I that makes a lot of sense with the wind absorbing part of Fain's soul. And I think part of the reason Fain went to Toman head was the pull (or push, if you will) of the Pattern. If not that, maybe he read the dark prophecies and knew that it was bound to happen anyways.

*just realized that I didn't read the next page of posts :P *

Midian, thanks. And I still feel that the theory applies. However, the RJ quote does explain why Fain went to Toman Head.... (attempting to establish a power base with a powerful anti-Aes Sedai ruler discovered while torturing a myrdraal).

Remember Fain WANTED Rand to follow him to Toman Head. He didn't want the Black Wind to sit there guarding waygates from Rand. I think it was compelled to do so because of the bit of Fain it absorbed. Even one of the voices within the Black Wind sounds like Fain now.

But no matter. What is curious to me is to wonder how fast the Black Wind can travel the Ways. For instance, when Rand travelled to Shadar Logoth to chase down Sammael, was there enough time for the Black Wind to travel to that waygate and thus be waiting for Sammael when the ruins caved in on him and Mashadar oozed in? I mean even if he somehow miraculously made it to the waygate, he'd just be food for the Black Wind if it was able to travel the Ways exceptionally quickly. And yes, I know that RJ said that Sammael was toast. But did a rock from a nearby building fall on his head, did Mashadar consume him, or did the Black Wind tear him limb by limb before absorbing Sammael's soul? Maybe he got hit on the head, a tendril of Mashadar touched him just as he was entering a waygate, then finally got eaten by the Black Wind. That would have been EPIC!

 

[Tehmpus]

A lot of interesting things happen at the end of The Great Hunt, but something that struck me new was a thought about Renna and Seta. If you remember, those were the Sul'dam that Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min captured when they rescued Egwene from the Seanchan. In the end, both Sul'dam were collared, and their bracelets were set over the same peg.

The A'Dam is set so that a damane cannot open the clasp to her own collar. Anytime a damane thinks about opening the clasp, her hand knots up to the point where it will not function. That is part of the function of the A'Dam. However; I did not realize that the A'Dam would prevent a damane from opening the clasp on SOMEONE ELSE'S COLLAR. Obviously, if Renna and Seta could have just opened up each other's collar, then they would have escaped at that point and significantly changed the story.

 

[Kitan Tataru]

Seeing as the a'dam creates an incomplete circle when the bracelet isn't being worn, it'd make sense that touching another a'dam would create bad effects.

The question is...what would happen if Renna and Seta put on EACH OTHER's bracelets?

(though it's incredibly possible that they were both in so much shock and fright that they wouldn't have thought of any of this...I mean, in everyone's eyes they'd basically become dangerous animals that needed to be controlled)

 

[Midian Venamar]

Yeah, I think to a degree, even if they had've realized there was a way out of it they might have not taken it. I mean they are Seanchan, so maybe finding out they could be collared would be enough to make them think that they should be collared. I remember one of them thinking that she just wanted out, but initially maybe.

 

[Avelina Ermen]

Okay! I'm not very far into The Great Hunt (I have a feeling this is quickly becoming my favorite thread), and there is just so much about Egwene that just completely gives away her story. Aside from the multiple musings of Moiraine on how Egwene would make an excellent Amyriln Seat one day, Siuan said something in their first private meeting in Chapter 5. When she is describing the two Amyrlins that had been stilled, she pointed out how they had been made servants of the White Tower after being stripped of the stole. She states how no one can rally around someone who must scrub pots all day. Then, as we all saw later, that was exactly what happened when Egwene was captured and brought to the Tower, she was often reduced to menial tasks in hopes of stripping her of her authority.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Seeing as the a'dam creates an incomplete circle when the bracelet isn't being worn, it'd make sense that touching another a'dam would create bad effects.

The question is...what would happen if Renna and Seta put on EACH OTHER's bracelets?

(though it's incredibly possible that they were both in so much shock and fright that they wouldn't have thought of any of this...I mean, in everyone's eyes they'd basically become dangerous animals that needed to be controlled)

The thing is........... intent.

I would suspect much like the Oaths what is important is what is in the mind of the damane more than the actual action.

I mean the a'dam isn't sentient, it has no idea that a particular motion is to remove the collar or to pick up a cup.

What it mostly likely does is pick up the intent to escape from the mind of the damane and then locks down on them.

And in the situation of removing another collar it would probably interpret the intent in that as an attempt to escape.

Probably likewise with the attempt to put on anothers bracelet too, it would see that as an attempt to escape and shut it down too.

Take Egwene for instance

Egwene went on dully, as if the other woman had not spoken. "They are training me, Min. The sul'dam and the a'dam are training me. I cannot touch anything I even think of as a weapon. A few weeks ago I considered hitting Renna over the head with that pitcher, and I could not pour wash water for three days. Once I'd thought of it that way, I not only had to stop thinking about hitting her with it, I had to convince myself I would never, under any circumstances, hit her with it before I could touch it again. She knew what had happened, told me what I had to do, and would not let me wash anywhere except with that pitcher and bowl.

It reads her intent in considering the pitcher a weapon.

It's pretty hard to escape with something on you picking up on your intents like that.

 

[Jas'yn Al'Dragoran]

Im reeeading the great hunt now. With respect to your first question why does Moirraine thing the horn needs to go to illian she gives her reasoning in conversation with Siuan. She argues if Rand appears in Illian with the horn as the Dragon reborn he will automatically have a sizable army behind him, since many there would follow the one who discovered the horn.

 

[Mackenzie Rose]

I'm up to The Great Hunt in my latest re-read, and something struck me about the Prophecies of the Dragon. When Rand finds Thom alive in Cairhien, Thom quotes a passage from the Prophecies:

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth. Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

I had always before taken that to mean that Rand would have to die in order to defeat the Dark One, Sheathing the Sword, etc. But it struck me that perhaps "his blood" doesn't mean the blood in his veins, but perhaps someone he is related to. Maybe we have some redemption for Luc / Isam coming up? Luc is Rand's uncle. Or it could be something Galad will do, since he is Rand's half brother.

Thoughts?