New Procedure for Leaving a Senior Member Group

Aintza Bisera

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I guess I look at this from a different perspective but I'm sorry I don't view this Unaffiliated SMs getting second class citizen treatment. Being forced to be a JM was that...this is a much better option.

And anyone can apply for a new group. It has been done.
 

Nadezhda al'Lanahrin

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Perhaps something like the Kin would be better than forming a new Ajah? I only suggest this to keep things more canon.
 

Morrighan Daghdera

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So is any officer/exec actually open to the idea of forming another Ajah or Company? I could see maybe a Company being formed, but if a group of Unaffiliated Aes Sedai came to the Amyrlin and said, "We'd like to make a new Ajah", does anyone really see that happening?
, and I'm super skeptical of the statement from the Shatayan.

Having just left the Unaffiliated SM space & without being overly specific about the private forum for the group, I can assure you that at least my perception supports DoMem and Amyrlin as being willing to at least seriously entertain a petition for another SM group. I’ve been rather outspoken on several topics & not necessarily in their favor. I have literally nothing to gain by sharing my perspective here. Hopefully my lack of vested interest gives me some credibility and in turn, gives you some peace that the possibility of a proposal being duly considered appears to be plausible.
 

Elania al'Manir

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Aintza, I agree that Unaffiliated SMs are being treated better than T2 JMs. That doesn't mean they're not also being treated worse than other SMs by having fewer privileges. They can't bond, don't get access to their bondmate's forum if they already have one, and can't be an invited guest. This isn't a statement on whether that was the correct policy choice or not, but rather a statement of the factual effect that Unaffiliateds have fewer privileges. I suppose calling it "second class citizens" might be a bit dramatic, but I don't know what else to call it. I can't go into the details, but I have seen a person describe not being allowed to bond as "a half SM."

Morrighan, I'm glad to hear that. I suppose we are moving more and more away from things like tradition and canon, a move which I do generally support. I'll wait until/unless it actually comes up to make more of a fuss. :p
 

Calen Velervron

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Would the community/leadership entertain citizens, jr members and unaffiliated sms having non voting observers in the hall?

I think if we use the hall more it helps the site. I also think transparency could be a beautiful thing.

just a thought
 

Aduiavas Ida

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Having Citizens and JMs view the Hall would ruin the surprise aspect of Raisings, but other than that, I like the idea Calen.

And I approve of this idea of Unaffiliated SMs. I don't see this as "second class" SM, I see that it helps people that want to change their Ajah/Company to do so without having to lose their Bonds. And it seems most of the people it affects also feels that way, which is the most important thing.
 

Lyndo Shiranui

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Maybe, after someone declares that they will remain as an Unaffiliated SM and so they stay in that position at least, let's say one year, they gain their right back, like bonding and being an invited guest? We can create another rank for those Unaffiliated SMs, like, the Kin?
 

Erin al'Denael

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So is any officer/exec actually open to the idea of forming another Ajah or Company? I could see maybe a Company being formed, but if a group of Unaffiliated Aes Sedai came to the Amyrlin and said, "We'd like to make a new Ajah", does anyone really see that happening?

Having just left the Unaffiliated SM space & without being overly specific about the private forum for the group, I can assure you that at least my perception supports DoMem and Amyrlin as being willing to at least seriously entertain a petition for another SM group. I’ve been rather outspoken on several topics & not necessarily in their favor. I have literally nothing to gain by sharing my perspective here. Hopefully my lack of vested interest gives me some credibility and in turn, gives you some peace that the possibility of a proposal being duly considered appears to be plausible.

If a new company wanted to form, comprised of unaffiliated SMs who cannot find a home on the site, I 100% believe that it would be seriously considered by administration.

I also don't see my current status as "second class." If anything, being a JM again because who I am diverged from my previous Ajah was jarring and I didn't like it. No offense to any first-time JMs or to anyone who didn't mind being a JM again. It just felt, for me, like going from one "bad fit" in a group to feeling completely out of place in perpetuity. I appreciate the changes that have come about in recent months, first with the option to allow guesting members to take a break from guesting, and now with this change where I can be a SM just as I am.
 

Raeviendha al'Toma

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If a new company wanted to form, comprised of unaffiliated SMs who cannot find a home on the site, I 100% believe that it would be seriously considered by administration.

I also don't see my current status as "second class." If anything, being a JM again because who I am diverged from my previous Ajah was jarring and I didn't like it. No offense to any first-time JMs or to anyone who didn't mind being a JM again. It just felt, for me, like going from one "bad fit" in a group to feeling completely out of place in perpetuity. I appreciate the changes that have come about in recent months, first with the option to allow guesting members to take a break from guesting, and now with this change where I can be a SM just as I am.
+1
 

Leira Galene

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Yes. "Because I said so" is generally a very frustrating answer. There were calls for transparency on other topics, I don't know why that wouldn't apply to a major change like this as well.
My point was because it's clearly something people wanted and are happy about, so that's a good enough reason for me. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't change that much, just shifts the structure a little.
 

Jahily al'Karee

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I also don't see my current status as "second class." If anything, being a JM again because who I am diverged from my previous Ajah was jarring and I didn't like it. No offense to any first-time JMs or to anyone who didn't mind being a JM again. It just felt, for me, like going from one "bad fit" in a group to feeling completely out of place in perpetuity. I appreciate the changes that have come about in recent months, first with the option to allow guesting members to take a break from guesting, and now with this change where I can be a SM just as I am.

I cannot agree with this paragraph enough. When I needed to demote, there was NO flexibility. You had to (1) go to Tier 2 and guest immediately, or (2) give up everything and go to Citizen. I needed some time and was not ready for option 1, so that left me with option 2.

It was difficult to stay active in Citizen limbo, but the opportunity to serve as Mayor helped with that. It was a job I really enjoyed. But, when I got ready to start over in the Tower, I had to give it up. (Again, no options.)

The changes for demoted SM’s that have come about over the past few months, give people options and some flexibility - to meet their needs without making them lose everything.

As for the idea of “second class status,” as has been explained, Unaffiliated SM isn’t meant to be a destination. So not having access to other group’s spaces, makes sense — since you would potentially guest there in your journey to find a new group.
 

Raeviendha al'Toma

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I cannot agree with this paragraph enough. When I needed to demote, there was NO flexibility. You had to (1) go to Tier 2 and guest immediately, or (2) give up everything and go to Citizen. I needed some time and was not ready for option 1, so that left me with option 2.

It was difficult to stay active in Citizen limbo, but the opportunity to serve as Mayor helped with that. It was a job I really enjoyed. But, when I got ready to start over in the Tower, I had to give it up. (Again, no options.)

The changes for demoted SM’s that have come about over the past few months, give people options and some flexibility - to meet their needs without making them lose everything.

As for the idea of “second class status,” as has been explained, Unaffiliated SM isn’t meant to be a destination. So not having access to other group’s spaces, makes sense — since you would potentially guest there in your journey to find a new group.

+1 also
 

Merena Orithana

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I've really tried to find clear fringe and I'm not having much luck. Maybe something more like this?....

That looks Purple to me! :waggle :look:

:giggle

**places rainbow cake on table** Just in case anyone gets hungry....
 

Keisha al'Benn

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I'm totally on board for a Kin....open to both Aes Sedai as well as Gaidin....I just want to retire with a place to sip my tea.
I really like what is happening so far here, it may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than being relegated to perpetual Citizen just because I don't want to go through the guesting and stuff all over again....I'm literally too old for that! lol
In the books the Kin had a rotation so we could do that too, if, after a while, someone wanted to return to Guesting, then they could.
 

Jocasta Braithe

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Maybe, after someone declares that they will remain as an Unaffiliated SM and so they stay in that position at least, let's say one year, they gain their right back, like bonding and being an invited guest? We can create another rank for those Unaffiliated SMs, like, the Kin?

+1
 

Merena Orithana

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Agreed on the Kin idea - it keeps with the book theme, while allowing another avenue for SMs.

They could even use the Kin's idea of power structure, secretiveness, etc etc etc...
 

Elanda Tonil

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I’m also strongly in favor of a Kin option.

I’m very happy with this change. I think it’s important for our members and for our community for people to be able to move around as their life changes. I thimk it’s better for Unaffiliated SM to not see their Bondmates’ forum and since it’s not a final destination, it seems like a reasonable restriction.
 

Alenya Al'Roran

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I had not intended my original reply to sound dismissive or "because I said so". The original proposal did go through all of the Execs and the Membership Admins before we put it in place, and we discussed quite a bit. For forum access, Guesting can be overwhelming, especially if it's been years since you did it or if you've never done it. We also have members who never guested with Ajahs or Companies because it wasn't allowed when they went through the first time. They know their bondmate's people and boards. You want them to stay in your Discord? We don't regulate those, so have at it, if that's what you want. You do you. On the forums, though, we went people to be comfortable Guesting and it's a process that can be difficult or nerve wracking. Different people react in different ways.

To tie in the question about bonding, what if, for example, I was Unaffiliated, and bonded. Then, after visiting different groups and learning about them all, I found my home in Red. Do I keep trying to find a different home to keep my bond? Do I sit around and wait to get my golds to keep it? Do I dissolve it after such a relatively short period of time? Further, how many bonds do I get? Do I get 2 because I left Green? Am I stuck with no bonds because I left Red? There was a lot of thought that went into this decision and we even discussed all of the implications of having to lose bonds after finding a home. For example, I leave a Company and Aspire to an Ajah where I can't keep both of my bonds. In my personal opinion, since Guesting can be a bit stressful, I think those bondmates are great to have someone to talk to during the process and you're able to have a conversation about where you feel most at home and maybe let your bond come to a natural end, in your own time, based on where you're most comfortable instead of having a deadline forced upon you by the rules. The intent was to make things more flexible and less painful for people who decided to leave their group, which is already a tough decision. What I don't want is to add stress by having a bond form that might need to be dissolved down the road because of where your home is. If you're going to form a bond, you know your person and you form that relationship yourself and, when the time comes and you can celebrate joining your new home, you can also celebrate with a new bond.
 

Alora Sionn

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During the discussion about Unaffiliated SMs it was brought up re: a group of Unaffiliated decide they want to form a new group, and the process for that is as it has always been if enough people wanted this, which is to put in a proposal to do so :) I'm in favor of a Kin group from previous discussions (not for myself), so if anyone wanted to start that conversation we can get it hashed out and then proposed.
 

Ty al'Djinn

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This is an awesome change. Thank you.
 
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