Mat and the Horn

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Brandon Tataru, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. Brandon Tataru

    Brandon Tataru Gaidin Master of Accepted & Soldiers

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    So I am wondering if anyone else has come to the conclusion that Mat is no longer attached to the horn? The horn would be connected to Mat till his death. Well Mat has died already, and come back. So logically they are no longer linked, and anyone who blows the horn now will be the one in control of the returned heroes.

    Just my two cents.
     
  2. Midian Venamar

    Midian Venamar

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    Definitely possible, although it may be moot. It seems like with the Horn being in the Tower, and Egwene being in charge of the Tower, it'd be unlikely that they'd take into account Mat's death and then undeath. Especially since Rand is the only one who knows that it ever happened. My bet is everyone assumes Mat is still going to be the horn-sounder, and so will likely blow it again, tying himself to it once more if he ever had been separated.
     
  3. Kallaes Doon

    Kallaes Doon

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    Mat didn't die and come back. His death was wiped form the Pattern through the use of Balefire which means that it never actually occurred. Since he never died, there's no reason he would no longer by bound to the Horn.

    If you are referring to his hanging in Rhuidean, Jordan stated that Mat did not die.
     
  4. Tehmpus

    Tehmpus

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  5. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    Actually two of his deaths were wiped from the Pattern, but both by balefire.
     
  6. Jerm Walt

    Jerm Walt

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    ??? :scratch

    I remember the one in Caemlyn, but for the life of me can't remember another time he died, much less it being erased by balefire.

    Please refresh...
     
  7. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    He was also drooled on by a Darkhound when Rand took the Aiel out of the Waste.
     
  8. Midian Venamar

    Midian Venamar

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    He didn't die then ... he just would've lost an arm to the acid in their drool, and probably died soon after. Rand balefired them early enough that it wasn't an issue.
     
  9. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    Indeed he didn't die before the balefire, but it would have happened.
     
  10. Emerald ní Róhan

    Emerald ní Róhan Aes Sedai

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    This is a subject where I would call RJ out. The 'finn told him he would die and live again. The battle against Rahvin shouldn't count, since he technically never died a la Balefire.

    The books seem to make it clear that Mat died in Rhuidean. Mat certainly seems to think so. Unless there's a quote of RJ (or some other proof) that there is another instance where Mat will die and come back to life, I'm sticking with the notion that he died in Rhuidean. (And I will always pronounce "Taim" in the way that rhymes with fame. :p)

    So. Based on the assumption that Mat died, it is entirely possible that the link was severed. Logically, everyone will assume that Mat will have to be the horn-sounder, since they don't know he died. So it ultimately won't matter. Or it may be that the link was re-established when he returned to life. Either way, I'm sure Mat will be the one with the Horn at the Last Battle.

    Nice insight, Brandon!
     
  11. Aemon

    Aemon

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    This whole above argument about Matt "dying" in Rhuidean all depends on what you mean by death? Even if you stop breathing, you are not technically dead. Assuming there's was nothing but suffocation/drowning stopping you from breathing (i.e. no spear through your heart) you can still be revived after a few minutes with no brain damage, as Rand was able to do. My grandfather had this happen to him several times in the last few years of his life before he passed (he had lung and heart problems).

    If Matt had hung too long on that rope, there is no way Rand's ad-lib CPR would have worked. Therefore, IMO Matt's only real death occured in Caemlyn, which was removed by balefire. I think RJ actually answered this at some point, but I can't remember where I saw it.
     
  12. Emerald ní Róhan

    Emerald ní Róhan Aes Sedai

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    Mat didn't die in Caemlyn. The actions of Rahvin were undone, which means Mat never died. :cheese

    And if one has stopped breathing, and the heart has stopped, one is dead, but can still be revived. Mat himself believes this to be the case.

    At any rate, the real question is whether Mat would still be tied to the horn. And that is a really tough call.
     
  13. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Ask and you shall receive.

    He didn't die in Rhuidean.

    So pretty much the only other thing it could be referring to is Caemlyn.

    And if you want a quote for that, I can help out with that one too

    Two quotes from two separate people at this event

     
  14. Emerald ní Róhan

    Emerald ní Róhan Aes Sedai

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    :tug Insufficient! I find Jordan's logic flawed and therefore deny it.

    :p

    I still say it is pronounced like Tame!!!! Muaaahahahahahaha!!!
     
  15. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Agreed on both accounts. The lightning death makes no sense. It would have had to be the hanging incident.
     
  16. Emerald ní Róhan

    Emerald ní Róhan Aes Sedai

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    I would have been so horrible if I'd met Jordan. I totally would have argued with him about how to pronounce Taim and when Mat died. :evil
     
  17. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    It may help to understand a little better how the Finns think, and you have to remember they sort of don't experience the pattern in a linear fashion the way everyone else does.

    For them, alternate timelines, parallel/mirror worlds, history re-writes....... its not black and white for them, as Dr Who would say, its wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

    So given their twisted view of things, its amazing they can get as close a description as they did trying to convey their ideas to simple old Mat.

    If I could get poetic for a moment from the side of the Ashandarei.

    The memory of Mat's death is not erased.

    As far as people's perception of reality is, he lived, died, and then lived again.

    Balefire doesn't re-write history exactly, it doesn't rewind time. it just undoes actions by killing the person back in time so that they weren't there to take those actions. So Mats death was undone...... but that's almost not the same as never happening in the first place as the act is remembered.

    Unfortunately as with all time travel stories language almost isn't sufficient to describe things, and worse things may not be exactly internally consistent in the first place being filled with paradox. (hence the danger in using the damn thing. It often defies logic and unravels the pattern in doing so).

    You have to remember prophecy isn't required to exactly by 100% clear in what its talking about (sadly). And if you were trying to write a prophecy about the lightning incident from the characters perspective, then living, dying and living again comes pretty close being accurate. It certainly gets the gist across. They don't going into a big speech perhaps about how technically speaking the death is only sort of happened, but not really happened happened

    The fulfilling the prophecy phrasing of living, dying and living again is one thing and that event outlined by that prophecy is the lightning incident for 100% certain.

    However whether that incident and its definition of death is the same criteria as what is necessary to snap the link to the horn is a totally separate issue.

    It maybe, or it may not. that all depends upon the horn mechanics not on what words the Finn choose to describe balefire incidents with.
     
  18. Emerald ní Róhan

    Emerald ní Róhan Aes Sedai

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    Well. I guess I would say the tie is still in place. Technically, the death never happened, so the link would not have been severed. That is what I am going to go with for now.

    Axis, that was a really excellent post. :clap
     
  19. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Thankyou Emerylde.

    I was hoping I was making sense :)
     
  20. CalebMSmith90

    CalebMSmith90 Citizen

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    I was always under the belief that even though Mats death was undone by Balefire, he still died. even though the action was reversed, he was dead until that happened. Its like balefiring a person. their actions may be reversed but not the memory of said action. Rand remembers mats death, so maybe thats whats what