Lanfear - Is Tel'aran'rhiod really her domain?

[Silencia Roamadred]

Recent revelations got me thinking about Lanfear. Driven by jealousy and love, Lanfear is undoubtedly one of the most interesting of the Forsaken. I see Lanfear as a tragic character, someone who never lived up to the expectations of her age, falling short of her third name and failing to win Lews Therin (whether or not she truly loved him, or just the idea of him is difficult to tell).

However one thing we do see of Lanfear is her exceptional abilities within the World of Dreams, a domain she claims as her own. It is also stated that Moghedien is the strongest in TAR but that never seems born out by the text. We know Ishamael was a Dreamer and he seems to disregard Lanfear when she chides him for his improper use of her domain. Moghedien achieves little in comparison to Lanfear.

Some notable things Lanfear does:

• Fools Perrin into believing he killed her
• Hides her scent from Slayer (something Perrin could not do)
• Kicks Birgitte out of TAR

We know that TAR is influenced by strength of will, with my own theory being that the Bore was actually drilled in TAR, as opposed to in the waking world.

So - do you think that Lanfear truly is the Daughter of the Moon or do you think that this is all part of Lanfears carefully crafted persona?

 

[Kranerian Vrammar]

I think in general we should ignore the words and thoughts of the Forsaken regarding things like their own abilities. They're all too arrogant to be trusted, overstating their own strengths and downplaying those of others. So, we have to go by their feats to get an idea.

Most Forsaken do very little in TAR aside from attend the occasional meeting, so they can be assumed to not be great there. I'm counting Aginor, Asmodean, Balthamel, Be'lal, Demandred, Graendal, Sammael, and Semirhage as part of this group.

Rahvin and Mesaana do a bit more, willingly choosing to fight in dreams. Notably though, neither of them survive those encounters. Rahvin manipulates things to try to win, but Rand manages to set them right despite not even knowing where he is. Mesaana does a bit better in her battle, but is still beaten in a one-on-one contest of wills by a dreamer who has been training for all of a year. So I'm ranking both of these as "not as good as they think they are."

Moghedien is an interesting one. She's clearly very skilled in TAR. She uses it to spy very effectively, even on other Forsaken; she can force her will upon others, even Birgitte by turning her into a child and then forcing her out of the dream. When she has the advantage, she is very strong there. However, the instant she loses the advantage she panics. She barely even tried to fight the a'dam, and in general tries to run rather than fight. So, not really the greatest at dealing with a place where strength of will is what matters.

Personally I put Ishamael and Lanfear on the same tier, at the top. Ishy practically lives there, the only times we see him in the waking world are brief glimpses where he's dealing with Rand. Both of them freely invade and manipulate others' dreams, something even the Aiel dreamwalkers do only with great caution. Lanfear even brings Asmodean along into Rand's dreams. I'm pretty sure these are the only two we ever see win or at least survive big fights in TAR. So, just like how those two are the strongest in the power for each of their genders, I think they're also among the strongest in dreams. Others like Egwene (if she had lived) and Perrin would likely be on that same tier in time, but unlike strength in the power there's no easy way to be sure. TAR is too fluid for that, I think.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

It was Moghedien that kicked Birgitte out of TAR, but otherwise I agree with you. It is between Lanfear and Moghedien on who is better, but I don't think those things can be measured. We see Graendal doing things there in the Last Battle as well, but I doubt she measures up to them.
Ishamael/Moridin might be good too, but I think he mostly uses dreamshards, not TAR itself...

 

[Silencia Roamadred]

I think in general we should ignore the words and thoughts of the Forsaken regarding things like their own abilities. They're all too arrogant to be trusted, overstating their own strengths and downplaying those of others. So, we have to go by their feats to get an idea.

Most Forsaken do very little in TAR aside from attend the occasional meeting, so they can be assumed to not be great there. I'm counting Aginor, Asmodean, Balthamel, Be'lal, Demandred, Graendal, Sammael, and Semirhage as part of this group.

Rahvin and Mesaana do a bit more, willingly choosing to fight in dreams. Notably though, neither of them survive those encounters. Rahvin manipulates things to try to win, but Rand manages to set them right despite not even knowing where he is. Mesaana does a bit better in her battle, but is still beaten in a one-on-one contest of wills by a dreamer who has been training for all of a year. So I'm ranking both of these as "not as good as they think they are."

Moghedien is an interesting one. She's clearly very skilled in TAR. She uses it to spy very effectively, even on other Forsaken; she can force her will upon others, even Birgitte by turning her into a child and then forcing her out of the dream. When she has the advantage, she is very strong there. However, the instant she loses the advantage she panics. She barely even tried to fight the a'dam, and in general tries to run rather than fight. So, not really the greatest at dealing with a place where strength of will is what matters.

Personally I put Ishamael and Lanfear on the same tier, at the top. Ishy practically lives there, the only times we see him in the waking world are brief glimpses where he's dealing with Rand. Both of them freely invade and manipulate others' dreams, something even the Aiel dreamwalkers do only with great caution. Lanfear even brings Asmodean along into Rand's dreams. I'm pretty sure these are the only two we ever see win or at least survive big fights in TAR. So, just like how those two are the strongest in the power for each of their genders, I think they're also among the strongest in dreams. Others like Egwene (if she had lived) and Perrin would likely be on that same tier in time, but unlike strength in the power there's no easy way to be sure. TAR is too fluid for that, I think.

I definitely agree regarding the Forsakens rating of their own ability. Moghediens cowardice is one of the reasons I wouldn't rank her above Lanfear. The moment she loses the uppetr hand she panics and that lack of emotional control is amplified in TAR.

I've always had this inkling that Perrin would be the most dominant force in TAR given time. We know he has immense willpower and his Wolfbrother side gives him an edge. He also has some feats not performed by anyone else (including surprising Egwene who is a Dreamer):

Egwene smelled amazed. She spun on him. “Balefire? You stopped balefire? Nothing should be able to do that.”
“It’s just a weave,” Perrin said, reaching out for Hopper. Where was Slayer?
“It’s not just a weave, Perrin, it’s—”
“I’m sorry, Egwene,” he said. “I will speak to you later. Be careful in this place. You probably already know that you need to be, but still. It’s more dangerous than you know.”

It was Moghedien that kicked Birgitte out of TAR, but otherwise I agree with you. It is between Lanfear and Moghedien on who is better, but I don't think those things can be measured. We see Graendal doing things there in the Last Battle as well, but I doubt she measures up to them.
Ishamael/Moridin might be good too, but I think he mostly uses dreamshards, not TAR itself...

I think we might be underappreciating Moridins mastery in TAR - we know he is a Dreamer, amongst one of the most knowledgeable and powerful Aes Sedai during the World of Dreams. However we really don't know (especially earlier in the novels) how much of Moridins mastery in TAR was actually mastery within a Dreamshard (where the force of opposition will is irrelevant).

However part of me keeps thinking about how Lanfear was involved in the creation of the Bore (which I think happened in TAR) along with Lanfears absolute belief that TAR is her realm, within TAR, belief is made manifest as consciousness is made into reality through sheer will.

I think for me it comes down to the following three:

Perrin - Due to his dual nature and inherent aptitude for TAR.
Lanfear - Due to her absolute belief in control over TAR.
Moridin - Due to his knowledge of esoterics and his abilities to control Dream Shards.