Ishamael's Partial Imprisonment

[Tehmpus]

My theory is that Ishamael is one of the servants of the wheel who get spun out of tel'aranrhiod periodically in order to set great events in motion, events needed for the correct turnings of the wheel of time. So in my mind, Ishamael's physical body was trapped along with the others, but his soul was allowed to roam tel'aranrhiod and spin out periodically. The wheel really isn't good or evil. It's a combination of both. The wheel is a manifestion of law/order. So it stands to rights that some of the "heroes of the horn" (or servants of the wheel) must set in motion evil deeds periodically for destiny's true course to be accomplished. And I believe at a book signing, RJ did state that Ishamael was partially trapped and would get "spun out" periodically from his prison. "Spun" is not a word used often in regular conversation. I believe it refers to the fabric of the wheel of time in which Ishamael's soul would be a thread. It getting spun out for a specific purpose would imply that he is one of the servants of the wheel.

Now take a look at one of Ishamael's speaches in the beginning prologue of the original book.

"Ten years, Betrayer," Lews Therin said softly, the soft sound of steel being bared. "Ten years your foul master has wracked the world. And now this. I will ...."
"Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is trumphant!" He finished in a shout, with a raised fist, and it was Lews Therin's turn to pull back, breath catching at the glow in the Betrayer's eyes."

This is just one passage where Ishamael implies a great knowledge of his own past lives. However, in the Wheel of Time, most everyone only has memories of their current life. It is a very rare instance when a person can remember more than just that. Our only examples are when the Dragon self-actualizes in book 13, and when Birgitte's soul is ripped directly from tel'aranrhiod into reality by Elayne as she attempts to save Birgitte's life. Birgitte remembered all her past lives in tel'aranrhiod, and she still remembered alot when reborn in this fashion with the memories fading/disappearing as months went by. The Dragon is also a servant of the Wheel. That's why Artur Hawkwing was able to recognize him at Falme. (Incidentally, IMO that's why Perrin was allowed to fight with the other heroes in the van since he too is a servant of the wheel that Artur Hawkwing recognized)

My point boils down to this. If Ishamael was partially trapped with his soul free to roam tel'aranrhiod and get spun out periodically by the Wheel, then he would have access to all those past memories of his past lives. That explains where his knowledge comes from. It explains his partial imprisonment. It explains why in most cases he wants to turn the Dragon to the Shadow rather than kill him. He is a servant of the Wheel.

 

[Spoke]

There are other explanations as well - working with the True Power erodes the barriers between the current life and past lives. Ishmael has his knowledge of past lives due to this use, very similar as how Rand obtained knowledge of past lives through the taint.

Ishmael was partially sealed. The most commonly accepted theory was that he was free every 1000 years or so for a period of approximately 40 years. He caused much havoc creating the Trolloc wars and later he poisoned Arthur Hawking's mind causing them to go conquer the Seanchan continent, and having him turn against the Aes Sedai.

 

[Tehmpus]

Spoke, nice to talk to you again.

I've never been so sure that working with the true power has the effect you describe. I'm curious where you heard that. Was it a Robert Jordan book signing?

Your 2nd point is spot on. Yes, Ishamael was free around every 1000 years or so to affect the world. I guess the only difference of opinion we'd have on that is the "why" he was freed periodically. Was he spun out periodically as Robert Jordan implied? Or was his partial imprisonment due to some sort of other flaw in the sealing process? I say that as a servant of the wheel, the wheel itself freed him periodically every 1000 years or so to affect history in certain needed ways for the correct weaving of the pattern. I understand that other people tend to believe that his partial imprisonment was due to other factors, but I really haven't seen anything else that makes sense in offering a valid explanation.

 

[Spoke]

Spoke, nice to talk to you again.

I've never been so sure that working with the true power has the effect you describe. I'm curious where you heard that. Was it a Robert Jordan book signing?

Your 2nd point is spot on. Yes, Ishamael was free around every 1000 years or so to affect the world. I guess the only difference of opinion we'd have on that is the "why" he was freed periodically. Was he spun out periodically as Robert Jordan implied? Or was his partial imprisonment due to some sort of other flaw in the sealing process? I say that as a servant of the wheel, the wheel itself freed him periodically every 1000 years or so to affect history in certain needed ways for the correct weaving of the pattern. I understand that other people tend to believe that his partial imprisonment was due to other factors, but I really haven't seen anything else that makes sense in offering a valid explanation.

The first point is a theory that was proposed quite along time ago, well before Semirage made comments about his insanity. However, there is definitely plenty of evidence to suggest that Ishmael's use of the True Power caused him to remember past lives. It was not a far stretch to say that the taint on Saidin had a similar effect, there was a theory related to Taim that was built off of this explaining the "so called Aiel" comment was due to his past lives as well. But there is no definite reference as it was said by RJ, Brandon, or Maria. So it is an old theory, not a definite, that is why I used the word "explanations" as opposed to stating it straight out.

 

[Tehmpus]

As far as I know, the true power has the following effects:

1) Saaa
2) Certain weaves can be done which are not currently possible with the One Power (like breaking Cuendillar)
3) Great pleasure leading to almost certain addiction
4) Inner fires which periodically burn the body eminating from both the mouth and eyes.

 

[Ilenora Tremaile]

As far as I know, the true power has the following effects:

...

4) Inner fires which periodically burn the body eminating from both the mouth and eyes.

I always thought this was an affectation of Ishamael's madness (that he chose to appear that way, all evil-like) and his thinking he was the Dark One himself.

 

[Tazren Talamar]

As far as I know, the true power has the following effects:

...

4) Inner fires which periodically burn the body eminating from both the mouth and eyes.

I always thought this was an affectation of Ishamael's madness (that he chose to appear that way, all evil-like) and his thinking he was the Dark One himself.

It could also be an effect of his partial imprisonment. Aginor and Balthamel were sealed close to the surface. look what it did to them. Ishamael was sealed even closer to the surface. Probably right at the edge.

 

[Ashlyn Sindal]

I always thought the fire in Ishamael's eyes/mouth was the same phenomenon as saa, just much, much further progressed.

 

[Tehmpus]

Ilenora, I thought the same thing at first. After all, Ishamael appears only in tel'aranrhiod in the first book (except at the ending). I thought that he was creating the fiery mouth and eyes as a sort of fearsome illusion while in tel'aranrhiod.

We found out differently; however, as the books progressed. Padon Fain noted the fiery mouth and eyes when he saw Ishamael outside Shadar Logoth. Obviously, they weren't in tel'aranrhiod at that time. Also, when Ishamael dies in The Dragon Reborn his carcass has burned out places where his eyes and mouth should have been. That was the proof to me that the fires were very much real and not illusionary.

Ashlyn is correct, IMO the eye and mouth fires were just another side effect of true power use... just very extensive use. (Possibly use over thousands of years worth of being partially trapped)

This is just a guess on my part, but Ishamael may have only been able to use the true power during his partially trapped periods. That would explain his willingness to use the true power almost exclusively while the other Chosen are very hesitant to use it (when they had access to it). We saw Ishamael use the true power to temporarily heal **Lews Therin** of his madness in the prologue of the first book.

 

[Jai al'Carr]

You mean Lews Therin.

 

[Tehmpus]

True, it was Lews Therin, but after he'd already trapped the Chosen at Shayul Ghul.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

And I believe at a book signing, RJ did state that Ishamael was partially trapped and would get "spun out" periodically from his prison. "Spun" is not a word used often in regular conversation. I believe it refers to the fabric of the wheel of time in which Ishamael's soul would be a thread. It getting spun out for a specific purpose would imply that he is one of the servants of the wheel.

I usually hate necroposting but reading back through some things I couldn't let this one slide and wanted to make clear.

Souls and threads in the pattern are totally separate things.

For example a grayman has no soul, but he would still have a thread in the pattern.

And I find Ishamaels imprisonment very curious indeed. Indeed I suspect as you do that it was the an effect of the Wheel which would pull him out of the prison from time to time as it needs. His and Rands threads are pretty much intertwined. If the Wheel wanted Ishy for its Plan, I'm sure it could pull him through the seal.

note when he was IN the prison, then he was still bound as fully as the majority of the Forsaken in the dreamless sleep.

Robert Jordan
For Dracos, the Forsaken could not talk to one another, not even Balthamel and Aginor, who were trapped near the surface and at least intermittently conscious and aware what was happening in the world. You might say that being trapped where they were, in a Bore that existed everywhere at once, allowed them to see the whole world. But for the others, it was a deep and dreamless sleep. Even for Ishamael, except when he was spun out periodically. When thinking about the Forsaken, you might factor in the effects of dream deprivation.

One interesting this is that the toxic twins could roam the world with their minds. I think its clear Ishy couldn't do this for the majority of the time he was sealed, but as he was pulled towards the surface close to coming out, he could probably do the same. He certainly seem to hit the ground running with a plan each time he was out.

They were very near the surface. It’s one of the reasons for the effects on them. They were for three thousand years aware—not in a sleep like the others; aware—and more aware of what has happened in the world. And because of the way the Bore works… See, the Bore is not located at Shayol Ghul. Shayol Ghul is simply the place where the Bore is most easily sensed. The Bore is everywhere, because of the nature of the universe. And those two guys, in effect, spent the last three thousand years in a state of feeling that they had no body—they certainly had no ability to move—that they were simply trapped minds, but aware and drifting over the face of the earth, able to hear people, able to see what was happening in one area or another. They could speak the language when they came out.

QUESTION
You are talking about Aginor and Balthamel now.
ROBERT JORDAN
Yeah.
QUESTION
And Ishamael as well?
ROBERT JORDAN
Ishamael is a different case. Read and find out.

Oh and here's the quote on the TP and eyes of flame.

Interview: Apr, 2003
Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)
Question
What about the saa? You wrote in a chapter, that there is a black hole before Moridin's eyes.
....

ROBERT JORDAN
It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you, because it gets thicker and thicker and thicker and you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected. And you are then on the road, at that point, inevitably, to becoming what Ishamael was. Because these are stigmata, if you will. These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the One Power.

The interesting thing, is note Ishy's madness was not caused by the TP like so many seem to think.

 

[Tehmpus]

Maybe it's just me, but I never really felt that Ishamael was mad persay.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

I've never thought him being as mad as most people seem to think anyway.

He certainly seems to have some level of insanity he's picked up over the years, but I'm pretty sure the whole ba'alzamon thing was a role he was putting on rather than actually believe himself to the the DO.

However whatever level of insanity Ishy had, Moridins is much less so (confirmed from BS)

Interview: 2011
Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)
Brandon Sanderson (3 January 2011)
Man, I love the prologue of The Eye of the World. Some of my favorite writing in the entire series. Great insight into Ishamael's personality pre-madness.
BRANDON SANDERSON
People like to talk of Rand's character development. Elan -> Ishamael -> Moridin is almost as interesting to me. His outlook has evolved so much.
JUSTIN LEE
Has it really evolved? he's still the megalomanical favorite/topdog he's always seen himself to be.
BRANDON SANDERSON
No, he's really changed a lot. He's a fatalist now, as I mentioned to @dragonmount. He knows far more.
JASON DENZEL
How would you compare Ishamael's motivations from when he was Elan vs when he was Moridin?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Elan is actually more selfish. He still thinks he will rule, that the Dark One will take over the world and create a new one.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Moridin has been through madness and touched the mind of the Dark One. He is far more fatalistic, and actually less selfish.
TEREZ
And therefore...less predictable?
BRANDON SANDERSON
I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that quote in relation to my tweet.
FOOTNOTE—TEREZ
In TGS 39, Verin tells Egwene that the Dark One looks for selfishness more than any other trait in his leaders—namely, the Chosen—because it makes them predictable.
AUSTIN MOORE
Is it wrong for me to have been under the impression that Moridin isn't "mad?" I've thought he was less mad than he was...
AUSTIN MOORE
...as Ishamael. Mad being crazy not mad being evil because obviously he's evil.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Moridin is less insane than Ishamael was. Much as Rand is less insane than Lews Therin was.
AZRAL HANAN
You say Moridin is less selfish. Is he now a Dark Buddha wanting to end the suffering of existence in the nirvana of oblivion?
BRANDON SANDERSON
It's not that he's unselfish. But compare his lines in The Eye of the World and Knife of Dreams and Towers of Midnight to see the difference.

 

[Midian Venamar]

I know this is a little off topic, but I've never read that quote from RJ before about how Aginor and Balthamel were "trapped minds, but aware and drifting over the face of the earth." Does anyone else find it odd that every book begins with the Wind ... generally described in a very similar way? In each book the wind almost seems to grow in power ... first blowing Rand's cloak, then almost pushing him off a tower. I'm not quite suggesting this, but it is interesting to think about that the Wind may actually be the "trapped mind" of the Dark One.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

Well that Wind nearly pushing him off the tower was a "bubble of evil".

So kind of.



He's probably not the wind, but it's a good question as to how aware the DO is of the world, and whether its different in no bore / bore open / bore sealed situations.

The best quotes I can get on how aware the DO is of the world is the following.

Robert Jordan
No, he didn't order Asmodean's death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn't complete knowledge

Of course he has at least something directly through SH.

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005
DragonCon Signing Reports - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)
Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?
Robert Jordan
I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature. It is the Dark One in shadowy form.

Other than that, It's hard to say............... It's certainly been an issue of curiosity for me over the years. I wouldn't call it too hard a stretch for him to have the same viewing ability as the toxic twins did. Possibly on in periods with a patched prison, perhaps not.

Certainly whatever he does see he remembers what happens from each turning of the wheel and the repetition of events which is interesting. Which is why Ishy is probably right the DO will get it correct in the end and win.

Interview: Jun 12th, 2009
Brandon Sanderson's Blog: Reader Mail (Verbatim)
Don
I wanted to comment on the general impression that nothing BIG changes with each turning of the Wheel, i.e., history repeats itself. It's mentioned in the books and has been confirmed by RJ in interviews. I take issue with this, however. The Dark One can influence the world AND he is outside the Pattern and the turning of the Wheel. History doesn't repeat for the Dark One. In his quest to break the Wheel, why would he repeat the same steps over and over again, knowing they don't work? He remembers and learns with each turning of the Wheel. Because of this, I feel that the possibility exists that something "different" could happen, and that perhaps this something "different" might happen at the end of this series. No one really agrees with me, though. : (
Brandon Sanderson
I wanted to answer this one, since there has been a lot of talk about Warbreaker on the blog lately, and I wanted to do something for the Wheel of Time readers. Don, you're actually quite right. The Dark One CAN stop the Wheel from turning. Indeed, this is his goal. So far, history has repeated for the Dark One—but only because he has failed at his attempts to unravel the Pattern. Now, the theory websites can go into all of this in much more depth (and specificity) than I can. I'm no replacement for Robert Jordan when it comes to continuity and cannon within the Wheel of Time world. (Except where it comes to the last volume.) Many questions and thoughts like this are better sent toward Bob at the Encyclopedia WoT or on the forums at Theoryland or Dragonmount (or on any of the other excellent websites.) However, this particular topic was one I decided I needed to delve into during my research for the final books. If I didn't understand the Dark One's motivations and goals, I didn't think I could do the Last Battle justice. And so, I can state with reasonable authority that the Dark One is indeed capable of doing what you say. Though, it should be noted that in many cases, the Dark One's actions will repeat themselves—he will try the same ploys, though I can't speak for certain on how much he has varied those over the years. But I can promise that just because he has failed in the past doesn't mean he will fail again. This series could end with the Dark One breaking the Wheel and destroying the Pattern. That is what is at stake.
Footnote
The reader mail was referring to this RJ quote, in which RJ states that there is "nothing different" about this turning of the Wheel (see context). It's a hot topic of debate on the forums as to exactly how far the implications of the quote can be taken. Brandon is (unknowingly) contradicting RJ here (RJ himself was always rather open about the fact that fiction generally requires a suspension of disbelief because you know the good guys are going to win). So theoretically the Dark One COULD win this turning, but we know he's not going to.

 

[CalebMSmith90]

The thing I have always wondered is, Aginor and Balthamel were trapped close to surface, so despite being imprisoned in 'stasis' they aged, whereas Ishmael did not despite his being partially sealed. Was he already immortal by this time, having been given both gifts by the dark one?

 

[Midian Venamar]

That's the thing though ... Aginor and Balthamel weren't in stasis. They were imprisoned, but it was so close to the surface - to the pattern - that they still aged. I'm still trying to figure out how Ishy was able to break out on occasion, despite not being trapped at the edge.

 

[Tehmpus]

Midian, the first post in the thread is my explanation for how Ishamael did it.

 

[CalebMSmith90]

my only question is how did ishmael not age like aginor did? if he was only partially trapped wouldnt he have aged same as them, unlike others who were sealed much lower.