Is the Dragon tied to the Horn of Valere

Boreas Silverfir

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Ok, so this started kicking around in my head as I finished Book 2 today. In the final chapters the Heroes and the Dragon Reborn recognize each other from past lives. It is stated clearly that the Dragon and Hawkwing have fought both together and against each other many times before. Which of course begs the question, is the Dragon also tied to the horn?
It would be remiss to not mention that in the final books (can't remember if it's 13 or 14) that the Gambler is not tied, and it seems that WolfBrother is not tied. But what about the Dragon?
 
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I don't think he is, although the banner of the Light is
 

Toral Delvar

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I don't think we know enough. Is there one Horn, which survives through the Ages, to be found and lost (unlikely, as it would require the language to be the same each time the second age came around), or is it remade each time, in the first or early in the second age? What does it mean to be tied? Rand says he sees about 100 (IIRC) heroes, but was expecting many more - just how many stories are there that this wasn't enough? We know Birgitte and Gaidal are spun out many times, but is that the case for all of them? Are there many Rogosh Eagle Eye stories from different times?
If we assume Artur was also king Arthur (though Rand has the sword in the stone part, and hangs around with Gawyn, Galad, Egwene,Lan and Nynaeve), then who could Rand have been in the other lives apart from his life as LTT - unless there is another Artur life during the end of the Age of Legends where he opposed LTT, but it got forgotten in the breaking
 

Boreas Silverfir

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Rand says he sees about 100 (IIRC) heroes, but was expecting many more -
That's not what I remember from my recent reread. At Falme it was Matt that commented that he expected more, but in near the same sentence it was stated that Rand had a feeling he couldn't explain. That somehow he knew that the 100-150 people were all that would come. Hawkwing even comments that it is rare that their number is added to, and then uses that possibility to bolster Huren's resolve before battle.
What got me thinking is that the heroes that speak all recognize Rand as LTT. Even joking about how women always get him into trouble.
 

Sorcha Al'Verdan

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... I'm too tired to think this through right now, but I lean toward yes.

Also where did it say that Mat and Perrin weren't for sure?
 
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I think the best place to ask this question would be in Tifan's Well with Adealeas and Vandene, they've got a lot of books and knowledge :laugh:
 
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Toral Delvar

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That's not what I remember from my recent reread. At Falme it was Matt that commented that he expected more, but in near the same sentence it was stated that Rand had a feeling he couldn't explain. That somehow he knew that the 100-150 people were all that would come. Hawkwing even comments that it is rare that their number is added to, and then uses that possibility to bolster Huren's resolve before battle.
What got me thinking is that the heroes that speak all recognize Rand as LTT. Even joking about how women always get him into trouble.
Right, I had mixed up Rand’s pov and Mats comment. The point stands though, that there are around 100. Do they all have stories that are still known in that age? How often are they spun out? Are there heroes who are only spun out once for each full turn of the Wheel?
 

Boreas Silverfir

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Also where did it say that Mat and Perrin weren't for sure?
Book 14 chapter 43, just after Logain is notified of the situation at the Ruins Matt asks Hawkwing about being bound like the other heroes.
Perrin being bound doesn't come up, so I'm working under the assumption that he is like Matt in this regard. He is wolfbrother, bound to the generations of wolves and destined to lead them.
 

Thaddius al'Guy

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It is stated clearly that the Dragon and Hawkwing have fought both together and against each other many times before.
I feel like this is later retconned. I want to say I remember Team Jordan talking about this specifically at JordanCon one year but I can't quite recall the details.
 

Boreas Silverfir

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I feel like this is later retconned. I want to say I remember Team Jordan talking about this specifically at JordanCon one year but I can't quite recall the details.
Did he retcon and republish book 3? Can't say I've paid much attention to the limited interview footage that's available.
 

Thaddius al'Guy

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@Toral Delvar Am I remembering this right or is my memory on the fritz?
 

Toral Delvar

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my ebook version sill has th e"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin and faced you as many more" quote
It could be that it wasn't changed, but they are normally pretty happy to change ebooks, no matter what the person who "bought" it thinks
 

Boreas Silverfir

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my ebook version sill has th e"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin and faced you as many more" quote
It could be that it wasn't changed, but they are normally pretty happy to change ebooks, no matter what the person who "bought" it thinks
That's the phrase that got me on this topic. Like, it couldn't just be that they had an iteration during the time of the 100 companions and The War of the Power. It feels more expansive than that.
 

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I seem to recall seeing somewhere that RJ said or had in his notes that The Dragon is tied to the Horn (and may actually be one of the Heroes of the Horn), but is only reincarnated for the purpose of facing the Dark One. I'll have to see if I can find the link.

I'm not sure when The Dragon would have fought against Hawkwing; it is easy to speculate, but I don't recall any specific instances or examples being mentioned anywhere.
 

Boreas Silverfir

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I seem to recall seeing somewhere that RJ said or had in his notes that The Dragon is tied to the Horn (and may actually be one of the Heroes of the Horn), but is only reincarnated for the purpose of facing the Dark One. I'll have to see if I can find the link.

I'm not sure when The Dragon would have fought against Hawkwing; it is easy to speculate, but I don't recall any specific instances or examples being mentioned anywhere.
That makes sense. Like if the Dragon is destined to be spun out to face the Destroyer, then during the various wars between human civilization both the Dragon and Destroyer could be hidden in each of the factions, trying to tip the long term balance to make ready for the Final Battle.
 

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I think it is entirely reasonable to postulate that the Dragon and Hawkwing would have interacted with each other. Both being tied to the Wheel of Time, either by the Horn or another source, with infinite possibilities being considered.
 
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