I'm sorry... One of the FIVE of you?!

[Jocasta Braithe]

If that red herring lasts longer than 1 or 2 episodes I will be very surprised. I'm not really bothered by the idea that they want to keep viewers in the dark a little longer. I honestly thought RJ was too obvious about the Dragon's identity early on and I would've liked it better if there was a bit more mystery. I do understand the nitpick that Nynaeve is supposed to be a few years older than the others so including her as a possible Dragon is kind of nonsensical, but it's just a nitpick to me as long as they don't actually change the identity of the Dragon and I can't imagine they'd ever do that in a million years (and to be clear, I think it's obvious from what's been released so far that they aren't going to change that. Rand is still Rand.)

 

[Elania al'Manir]

I think the biggest thing for me is that so much of the legend of the Dragon is tied up in the fear of saidin, and the fact that the Dragon is destined to go insane. If they can manage to intimate that the level of fear would be the same with a Dragon who channels saidar instead, then I'm all for changes to the lore. I just care that it makes sense.

I think you can use the prophecy to accomplish that. "The Dragon will be reborn, and they will either save the world... or doom it for us all." (cue dramatic music). I don't know how specific they really need to get on what the doom will be as long as they can show the fear it generates.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

I think you can use the prophecy to accomplish that. "The Dragon will be reborn, and they will either save the world... or doom it for us all." (cue dramatic music). I don't know how specific they really need to get on what the doom will be as long as they can show the fear it generates.

Isn't the prophecy that he will save the world AND destroy it, not OR? That's actually something that's been bugging me a little bit.

 

[Elania al'Manir]

Isn't the prophecy that he will save the world AND destroy it, not OR? That's actually something that's been bugging me a little bit.

Ah yes, you are correct. The Karaethon Cycle does explain that.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

I think the biggest thing for me is that so much of the legend of the Dragon is tied up in the fear of saidin, and the fact that the Dragon is destined to go insane. If they can manage to intimate that the level of fear would be the same with a Dragon who channels saidar instead, then I'm all for changes to the lore. I just care that it makes sense.

I didn’t even THINK about the Saidin issue!
That makes it even more annoying and nonsensical

I hope it turns out to be one of those things that appears in the trailer but not the show…

 

[Leira Galene]

It makes sense to me as an Aes Sedai thing Moiraine would say as a way to keep the girls invested in going with her.

 

[Satara al'Caelahn]

I was more referring to the fact that the whole beginning follows Rand and his father.
To make it more vague, they’ll need to either cut the whole part of Tam’s injury/delusions, give more focus on what happens at Two Rivers rather than the Al’Thor farm, etc.

We already know that the show is going to be more or less told from Moiraine's POV, not Rand's. Which is honestly one of the smartest moves that they've made. So much of the backstory about the AoL and LTT, saidin being tainted, prophecies from the Karaethon Cycle, tidbits and points of history... all of those things need a credible source to present that information to the audience. You're not going to get that from a random villager who thinks Baerlon is a huge city. That information is going to come from Moiraine, so in that sense, it's good that we'll probably see her and Lan alone and hear what they have to say away from the listening ears of the Two Rivers' folks.

However, I do have that worry that "one of the FIVE of you" eliminates the fear that surrounds the knowledge (not speculation of what if, but the KNOWLEDGE) that the Dragon Reborn will be wielding a tainted power and will go insane because of it. That's half the reason that people fear the Dragon's rebirth. They know what the male Aes Sedai did to break the world and they're terrified of having to turn a man who can channel loose in the world. It's the bedtime stories that they use to scare children. And if there's even a slim chance that the Dragon Reborn could be a woman, it completely eliminates that fear and I don't like that.

HOWEVER... I'm holding out hope that it's something of a delaying tactic on Moiraine's part. OR that we'll still see Tam's fevered mutterings and Rand's reaction to them so the audience will know, but assume that Moiraine isn't sure yet, or that she's saying something that barely scrapes past the three oaths because the others don't know yet.

(that was way wordier than I intended, sorry)

 

[Imzadi Hopewind]

It makes sense to me as an Aes Sedai thing Moiraine would say as a way to keep the girls invested in going with her.

This! I believe that's the reason why she said it. And we will know for sure when the TV-series starts November 19th. Trailer doesn't always show everything, just bits of here and there.

 

[Nadezhda al'Lanahrin]

I am both excited by this and a bit scared I am excited because I know some people will like it and even read the books, but I am scared, because some people will probably hate it and trash it and I really hate mean comments about WoT

+1

 

[Juliya Karisu]

I think the biggest thing for me is that so much of the legend of the Dragon is tied up in the fear of saidin, and the fact that the Dragon is destined to go insane. If they can manage to intimate that the level of fear would be the same with a Dragon who channels saidar instead, then I'm all for changes to the lore. I just care that it makes sense.

However, I do have that worry that "one of the FIVE of you" eliminates the fear that surrounds the knowledge (not speculation of what if, but the KNOWLEDGE) that the Dragon Reborn will be wielding a tainted power and will go insane because of it. That's half the reason that people fear the Dragon's rebirth. They know what the male Aes Sedai did to break the world and they're terrified of having to turn a man who can channel loose in the world. It's the bedtime stories that they use to scare children. And if there's even a slim chance that the Dragon Reborn could be a woman, it completely eliminates that fear and I don't like that.

Agreed, I think the whole point of the Dragon Reborn is that he will wield saidin. Look at Logain and all the other false Dragons. There would be no way a woman could set herself up as a false Dragon. Whatever. I am going to go into this show as optimistic as possible and love everything anyway.

 

[Aratouial Delafeld]

My personal thoughts are that The Karaethon Cycle, if you remove the male pronouns, doesn't change. It doesn't explicitly make the connection that the Dragon will channel saidin and go mad-- mostly because he doesn't go mad, so they'd be inaccurate if they predicted that (Lews Therin's voice was a real effect caused by the corruption making the Dragon's past life bleed through, not madness). Mostly it's vague hand-waving about "War Bad." The only one that is definitely about A Man in the books in Callandor, but that's only in retrospect because the Aes Sedai don't know it's a saidin-only sa'angreal until Rand pulls it from the Heart.

There are many reasons to fear the rebirth of the Dragon: it means the Dark One is no longer safely imprisoned; war will sweep over the continent; there will be wildfires, famine, disease, and drought; people will be put in chains; massive political unrest ... none of that is channeling-related. Of the prophecies we know Rand fulfilled and can point to specifically, none of those are saidin-exclusive either. He releases Callandor because of his identity, not saidin. He slays the Aiel with the sword of peace and destroys them with the leaf because of the truth he reveals about the Jenn Aiel and the Way of the Leaf. When he cleanses saidin and "heals the wounds of madness," Nynaeve is also there channeling saidar.

You can be woefully afraid of the Dragon, and you can also be afraid of saidin channelers without those being inextricably, inseparably linked. The Dragon being a saidin channeler is An Additional Concern, not the only reason to fear them. Also, in the books, many common folk believe "the Aes Sedai caused the Breaking," and they don't limit it to men. "Aes Sedai caused the Breaking" is one of the justifications given for marath'damane, the Whitecloaks, etc.

Also, you can be afraid the Dragon will cause another Breaking without necessarily knowing they'll be channeling saidin. After all, none of the Hundred Companions were affected by the corruption when they sealed the Bore-- the corruption was the Backlash from not using the True Source as a buffer. If someone using saidar attempted to face the Dark One and also didn't use the True Source, RJ made it clear it would've caused saidar to be corrupted, too. That would lead to another Breaking even worse than the first, because at that point there's not even a Red Ajah to try to mitigate it.

So yeah. The show is 100% not changing anything, Rand is still the Dragon, but shifting this minor lore point doesn't break the plot. What it does do is open the door for a more inclusive understanding of the One Power that isn't so gender-binary-segregated.

RJ's books were so far ahead of their time in so many ways. I believe he was absolutely a visionary and was trying to be as expansive as possible ... but there are still problems in the books when it comes to how gender is handled. Rafe has said that one of the important parts of his adaptation is trying to stay true to that spirit. He has a chance to bring Wheel of Time into the 21st century the way RJ never got to. He gets to ask interesting questions for a modern audience, and be as expansive and visionary as RJ was originally. This is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most about the show-- being able to enjoy it and experience it without wincing and cringing through all the benevolent sexism and biological essentialism. Harriet seems to be very on-board with this direction, so I am optimistic and excited.

 

[Khisanth al'Danya]

My personal thoughts are that The Karaethon Cycle, if you remove the male pronouns, doesn't change. It doesn't explicitly make the connection that the Dragon will channel saidin and go mad-- mostly because he doesn't go mad, so they'd be inaccurate if they predicted that (Lews Therin's voice was a real effect caused by the corruption making the Dragon's past life bleed through, not madness). Mostly it's vague hand-waving about "War Bad." The only one that is definitely about A Man in the books in Callandor, but that's only in retrospect because the Aes Sedai don't know it's a saidin-only sa'angreal until Rand pulls it from the Heart.

There are many reasons to fear the rebirth of the Dragon: it means the Dark One is no longer safely imprisoned; war will sweep over the continent; there will be wildfires, famine, disease, and drought; people will be put in chains; massive political unrest ... none of that is channeling-related. Of the prophecies we know Rand fulfilled and can point to specifically, none of those are saidin-exclusive either. He releases Callandor because of his identity, not saidin. He slays the Aiel with the sword of peace and destroys them with the leaf because of the truth he reveals about the Jenn Aiel and the Way of the Leaf. When he cleanses saidin and "heals the wounds of madness," Nynaeve is also there channeling saidar.

You can be woefully afraid of the Dragon, and you can also be afraid of saidin channelers without those being inextricably, inseparably linked. The Dragon being a saidin channeler is An Additional Concern, not the only reason to fear them. Also, in the books, many common folk believe "the Aes Sedai caused the Breaking," and they don't limit it to men. "Aes Sedai caused the Breaking" is one of the justifications given for marath'damane, the Whitecloaks, etc.

Also, you can be afraid the Dragon will cause another Breaking without necessarily knowing they'll be channeling saidin. After all, none of the Hundred Companions were affected by the corruption when they sealed the Bore-- the corruption was the Backlash from not using the True Source as a buffer. If someone using saidar attempted to face the Dark One and also didn't use the True Source, RJ made it clear it would've caused saidar to be corrupted, too. That would lead to another Breaking even worse than the first, because at that point there's not even a Red Ajah to try to mitigate it.

So yeah. The show is 100% not changing anything, Rand is still the Dragon, but shifting this minor lore point doesn't break the plot. What it does do is open the door for a more inclusive understanding of the One Power that isn't so gender-binary-segregated.

RJ's books were so far ahead of their time in so many ways. I believe he was absolutely a visionary and was trying to be as expansive as possible ... but there are still problems in the books when it comes to how gender is handled. Rafe has said that one of the important parts of his adaptation is trying to stay true to that spirit. He has a chance to bring Wheel of Time into the 21st century the way RJ never got to. He gets to ask interesting questions for a modern audience, and be as expansive and visionary as RJ was originally. This is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most about the show-- being able to enjoy it and experience it without wincing and cringing through all the benevolent sexism and biological essentialism. Harriet seems to be very on-board with this direction, so I am optimistic and excited.

+1 to all of this!

Especially the last line. Harriett and Team Jordan are all enthusiastically behind how the show is being done and that is a huge point for me because they are the ones who best knew RJ and how the books came to be.

I think it is important too to understand that we are not seeing this all in context yet. I do not believe that Rafe will change the ultimate iterations of the main 5 from what they are in the books. The path to their destinies may look a bit different in the visual medium, but I think we will still see them in the roles they grow into.

 

[Jocasta Braithe]

RJ's books were so far ahead of their time in so many ways. I believe he was absolutely a visionary and was trying to be as expansive as possible ... but there are still problems in the books when it comes to how gender is handled. Rafe has said that one of the important parts of his adaptation is trying to stay true to that spirit. He has a chance to bring Wheel of Time into the 21st century the way RJ never got to. He gets to ask interesting questions for a modern audience, and be as expansive and visionary as RJ was originally. This is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most about the show-- being able to enjoy it and experience it without wincing and cringing through all the benevolent sexism and biological essentialism. Harriet seems to be very on-board with this direction, so I am optimistic and excited.

YES YES YES YES :ha

 

[Rollyn Montagorae]

So, spinning out this scenario, if the Dragon were reborn as a woman, then she would be a fearful figure because she would likewise be in danger of breaking the world with saidar? So there would be no concerns of madness from the taint, but just a power-hungry female channeler? I can go with that.

And if she were literally the reincarnation of LTT, then wouldn't she still channel saidin like (spoiler) later in the books?

If she channeled saidar, then in what way would she be the Dragon Reborn in any but a figurative sense? I don't think we have instances in the books of reborn characters in other bodies channeling that body's half of the Power instead of the soul's half.

RJ's comment speaks of "equivalents" of the Dragon Reborn, which I get, but I think going more literal than that runs into problems with the worldbuilding.

(And to be clear, I do think if RJ started writing Eye of the World today he'd almost certainly not use the gender binary for his magic system in light of the contemporary cultural conversation.)

 

[Elania al'Manir]

@Aratouial Delafeld, thank you for writing that out! It was bothering me that people were tying Dragon with saidan so closely, but I wasn't able to articulate it the way you did so I just left it alone.

@Rollyn Montagorae, I think from a strictly book perspective, that turning of the Wheel would have to spin out a literal Dragon/LTT reborn. As an adaptation and a different turning of the Wheel, the TV show can tweak things a little to open up other possibilities like not having a literal reincarnation. I'm pretty sure that will still happen as we have rumors of LTT being cast, but it could be merely one possibility in this turning instead of the only possibility.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

And now it's "We don't know if he was reborn as a man or a woman"...
Yeah, if they changed the identity of the Dragon, I'm just going to stop watching the show.
I really, really hope they didn't.

 

[Aran Cherubim]

Someone in Twitter mentioned that, apparently, the word "five" was in a slightly different quality/pitch than the rest of the sentence. If so, it might be one of those edited-together sentences they make for trailers. Frankenbiting.

I really hope they keep the plot point where Nynarve catches up with them on her own accord. Her being a badass that feels responsible for the Two Rivers kids and gains Lan's respect early on for her tracking skill, and maintains an independence from Moiraine are such good parts of her character development early on.

 

[Leo Kian]

I just can't see them changing it.

Plus it would mess up all the arcs. Egwene is the DR, and the Rebellion/Amytlin Seat, Dreamer plus everything else she does. I just can't see it.

It's tantilising but I think that's about it. I hope so.

 

[Syera Faelron]

Speculation, oh glorious Speculation.. We'll find out soon!!wave:xtug

 

[Morgana Arakos]

They're not going to change who the dragon is. In the posters, Rand is in the middle with a big ol' circle of weaves around him. And, the actor has talked in interviews about Rand's journey in the books and what it means to him. It seems pretty clear to me that the essential plot will stay the same.