How to seal the dark one for the last time?

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Aulrick Vendour, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Just thought I'd bring this thread from the old forums, because I thought it was interesting.
    You can find the full thread here, though I'm not sure for how long. So if you want any more back messeges, you should go see them now :p

    I wasn't. I simply said that it wasn't he who decided that the souls would stay in TAR. I believe that was just a... side effect of the creation of TAR.

    That's the thing, I believe it was. TAR is a world of dreams, and those who dream are men. In TGH we learn that the mirror worlds are worlds that could have been, meaning all possible threading of the pattern. I think we both agree that the pattern was made by the creator. But note that TAR isn't, in fact, part of those worlds. It's something else, something made by those creatures who dream.

    Is that so? Let us read that passage together. TSR, 28:462:
    From brigitte's description we can learn that there is a difference between the land of the Aelfin and Eelfin in TAR and their world in the real world. It's not the same. It can't be the same. Think about it - when in TAR, you're not there in your body. That's the only place we know of that happens. So only your mind enters another world, which is real? That's impossible. Or is there a TAR version of the Aelfin and Eelfin world? In which case it's not a different world, just another part of TAR. Do you understand the problem of traveling to different worlds from TAR? You don't have a real body there, only your mind, and that is something we haven't seen anywhere other then TAR.

    Unlike his name "Lord of the Grave", we actually know that the DO can't, in fact, take any soul he wants when a person dies. Otherwise no one would ever have been reborn. The DO would simply take all souls when they die and that's it. I see no reason to assume that the heroes of the horn will have reason to fear him after death. Not only that, but we know that the DO infact used them before - Ishamael used Arthur Halkwing the last time and turned him against the Aes Sedai. Also, while we know the heroes of the horn have legends, who said that all of their adventures were connected to the DO at all? There are other adventures out there, you know.

    Enterwined with him? What does that mean? I was under the impression that in those areas he effects the world more, not that they are in any way interwined with him... Not even sure what that means.

    Not necesserily. If TAR is indeed a world of men, I doubt the DO can get there, seeing as he's not a man and probably doesn't dream. He doesn't really have a corporeal form, so he can't travel there with a body.
    If you ask me, the reason the DO can't get to TAR is as simple as those two lines I just wrote. Which means the reason you can't travel to the blight or SG at all in TAR is for a different reason all together, not connected to the DO not being able to go there.

    Agreed on that. I just disagree on you reasoning. I see no reason the heroes would need to hide. Nor have I ever heared anyone have any control over his own soul or thread in such a way that he decides it should be hidden after his death. And if the creator wanted them there, why not protect ALL people there? After all, while the heroes are reborn into lives of greatness, EVERYONE is reborn to normal lives. That's the meaning of the wheel.

    That's an interesting theory. I like that... Though it doesn't disprove any of what I wrote.

    We know there was an explosion, because the Sharom exploded in midair. What was the exact nature is irrelevant to my theory. It doesn't matter if it was a strike by the DO or just a natural accurence. BTW, if you read my previouse post, you'd see that we actually agree on this point. I believe the explosion was done by the DO as well, from his side, thus explaining the flaps of TAR entering the real world.
    My theory is basically based on the idea that the pattern is thinner where the bore was made, and in TAR as well (if it's part of the pattern at all, or some alternate pattern parellel the real one). That thinnest place isn't, in fact, where the Sharom was, but where the blight now are. Because the pattern is weakest there, that's where the DO can easily influence the world. It was said byu someone above, that the bore isn't really in any specific place. So why can the DO effect those parts? Because that's where the pattern is thinnest.
    IF my theory that the pattern is even thinner in TAR (based on the changing nature of objects), it makes since that's where they'd want to bore the hole, because that would be easiest.

    Because we know things in TAR CAN effect the real world. We know injuries that happen there might effect reality. We know Aes Sedai can, at times, lose their ability to channel because of things happening there. We know that the border between TAR and the real world isn't always clear.
    Again, I'm not sure if they actualy made the bore there, or used TAR's thinner pattern to bore a hole in the real world. That's because I don't know enouigh about the physics of the connection between TAR and the real world. But we know for sure things that happen there CAN effect the real world, in some cases.

    Hence the hole in TAR, a place you cannot go, because there is a hole there.

    No, that's not the sort of explosion I'm thinking of. I'm thinking more of a power thing, like when he covered Saidin with the taint. We know SOMETHING explodedout of the bore, because the Sharom exploded in midair the moment the bore was made. I am ofcourse not talking about a physical explosion.

    No.
    The Great White Book is quite clear that Shayul Ghul existed BEFORE the breaking of the world, and it was located where once a tropical island was, used for vacations. The Sharom, on the other hand, was floating over an academy or city of some sort. I dunno, while they don't say the city isn't on a tropical island used for vacations, it just doesn't really sound as if they were in the same place. My gut tells me we're talking about two different places, which means the bore was made from the Sharom, but in a different part of the world.
    That makes sense in TAR...
    Now that I think about it, we know Lanfear survived the explosion of the Sharom, while others did not... I now believe more then ever that she was in TAR, in the flesh, while others were there in mind only. It was perhaps needed to make a connection between TAR and the real world that can effect the real world through TAR. I don't know the details, but it makes sense.
     
  2. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Oops...
    This is obviously NOT the forum in which I wanted to post this... Must've closed the wrong browser tab by accident...
    Can someone please move this to the Book 13 discussion forum? :look
     
  3. Erin al'Denael

    Erin al'Denael Ban Hammer, Scourge of Spambots Everywhere Aes Sedai Mistress of Novices & Recruits

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    Yeah, I was like....how does this relate to vB. :blink Moved!
     
  4. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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  5. Leo Kian

    Leo Kian Aes Sedai Mayor Forum Moderator

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    I can't see it being created by those who dream. TAR is a complex and ever changing place but it does have rules, I doubt that a whole bunch of people would dream and therefore by your estimation created such a world. I think it makes more sense that it was created. Also it may be called the World of Dreams but it's mostly occupied by people who are conscious of being there, those who are truly dreaming are there for seconds if at all.
     
  6. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    I'm not sure I agree, but it makes little difference to my theory anyway, and still doesn't mean that the heroes were placed there to hide from the DO between lives, especially since there seems to be no need for that.
     
  7. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Note the Sharom floated above V'saine.

    And yes there is a good chance that drilling the bore had something to do with TAR. After all, if you're going to drill out of reality..... TAR probably is a closer place to start from. Hard to say though without more information.

    I've discussed a bit of this before but personally I believe that the current location of V'saine is Tear

    I based this on Moiraine's statement in TDR

    I find that statement incredibly interesting, and I can't think of much that could possible cause such a weak area other than the drilling of the bore. If its NOT for this reason though, I'd very much like to know why.

    When you look at the drilling


    I agree with Aulrick the interesting thing is there seems to be a blast of the TP shooting out. However the DO doesn't seem to be able to use this location in the future to touch the world, so the "wound" must have healed itself somehow.

    So they probably just pushed the threads aside. Similar probably in someway to traveling perhaps? The Pattern has seemed very resilient to these kinds of attacks, where it seems to heal itself immediately after Aes Sedai travel, and indeed even from the rips from traveling with the True Power.

    So perhaps when the TP blasted out it destroyed whatever was in the Sharom that was holding the threads apart for them to access the null-space where the DO is to drill the bore into his prison and that initial breach in the pattern snapped shut.

    Now with that gone, the only place the DO can get to the world, is through Shayol Gull, the thinness in the pattern. And the only way to then access the bore is to go through the thinness at Shayol Ghul like the Hundred Companions had to.

    Time for my handy dandy pic.

    [​IMG]

    That's what I think anyway/
     
  8. Tehmpus

    Tehmpus

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    Axis, I've always felt that your theory was at least possible if not probable. It addresses all the accepted facts of the matter. I don't really have an answer to how the bore was created, so your theory is better than anything I have at present. It just seems odd that the thinnest point in the pattern would shift from the location of the Sharom to Shayul Ghul.

    Personally, I think we can expand from Robert Jordan's statement that the Bore is everywhere, and thus not really conclude that it is one hole bored into the pattern, but basically all the tiny little holes in the fabric between threads. Somehow Lanfear was able to expand all those holes between threads of the pattern just enough for bits of the Dark One to creep through. Perhaps they were trying to draw this power (which they didn't realize was the Dark One himself) through all those expanded holes and consolidate the power at the Sharom. They BOOM... they didn't realize what they were dealing with... a frustrated Dark One that had been penned up for like..... forever.

    Anyways, your theory does fit the facts tho, so I can't really disagree with it. Aulrick's tho still seems to have several flaws which I've already pointed out. (Speaking of which, Birgitte's statement was that it was all but impossible to GET OUT of the Ael'Fin world if entered from tel'aranrhiod. She never said that it couldn't be entered from tel'aranrhiod. Slayer fully intended for Perrin to trap himself in the Ael'fin/Eel'fin world. That's why he led him to the tower of Genji in the first place.
    Ah well, I like Aulrick and don't want to criticise too much because I think that he's got some great new ideas; and I'd love for him to solve a few of the mysteries that I currently have not solved, so I don't want criticism to diminish what he brings to the table.
     
  9. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    I think its pretty clear than V'saine and the thinness are totally separate places. Clearly the were able to drill the bore from there in any case.

    I think the problem with the "bore being everywhere" thing is trying to relate two very different levels of reality in terms of a relationship between each other.

    I mean the nullspace outside of the pattern, is essentially accessible from anywhere inside the pattern, so in many ways it does "exist" everywhere.

    Now the nature of the prison is interesting, we don't really have a great idea of what it entails. The above picture shows it as an "object" within nullspace.

    however I think that may be slightly misleading. Because RJ has described the bore as being a thinness as well.

    now I've usually put that particular quote down to just the questioner misunderstanding the usual Shayol Ghul thiness, but now I'm not so sure. it's possible its a bit of a clue into the nature of the prison.

    perhaps what it really is, is another level of reality again. Essentially a contained reality possibly similar to the prime universe proper, although more likely with a reinforced boundary conditions. (I rather like the idea of the Pattern of this prison reality being woven from the life thread of the Creator. which would explain its stronger binding properties, its nicely sacrificial which always fits in nice with Christian myths and also explains why the Creator is so hands off in reality if he's tied up keeping the DO neutralized)

    So the DO is isolated within this secondary plane unable to make contact with the prime plane.

    and then comes along good old Mieren and drills the bore into that reality (by creating a thinness) from the reverse side. Which then allows the DO to extend his influence and into nullspace and then through our thinness and this reality.


    I mean think about what we see in the few looks we've had at people at SG.

    This quote to me looks very much like I would expect to see from a view hole into another reality.

    so the big question is..... the thinness in our reality at Shayol Ghul, where did that come from?

    One possible answer is perhaps is a side effect of the Book of Translation when the Ogier punched their way into this world.

    Or possibly something else... other acts from other realities, other things from previous turnings of the wheel. etc

    I'd very much like to know the origin of the thinness in the prime world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  10. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    I don't think it moved. In fact we know it didn't, because we already talked about thow the Sharoom and SG are not in the same place.

    But then, why would there be an explosion in the Sharoom specifically? I may be wrong, but I have a feeling we're thinking about this the wrong way.
    What if the bore itself WAS in one place when it was created, but expanded later? We know it expanded after it was made, so sais the great white book. Could the expansion mean NOT that the bore itself got bigger, but that in expanded to cover more in the pattern?

    I'm actually not so sure.
    No offense Axis, but your theory still have some holes I can't get over. Why didn't they make the whole in SG in teh first place, if it's thinner? I think they made the whole in SG in the first place, they just weren't there when they made it. They were in the Sharoom. That's the only reasonable explanation, even though some of the technical aspects aren't clear.

    Indeed. But again - how can you exit the world of A&E if you're not inthere in body? How can you enter there? Is a body somehow created for you? I think the reason it's almost impossible to get out when you enter through the world of dreams is that you have to exit back to the world of dreams... That might be a problem if you don't have a body that can go to sleep.

    Keeping me talking about ideas is easy. It's getting me to shut up that's the trick.

    Yes, and as I said I doubt that city was located on a tropical island used for vacations... Which is where SG is said to have been during the AOL... So again we come to the conclusion that the Sharoom and the bore were at two different places. Which is what I said in the first place. It's odd that I never saw anyone here wondering about that fact... Everyone seems to have taken it for granted that SG is where the Sharoom used to be.

    Really? I always thought she was talking generally because of the prophecies and all that. I would also expect to see more DO ifluence where the pattern is thinnest, and I can't recall anything like that in Tear.
    What about Rhuidean?

    I'm not sure... I really think we're overcomplicating these things. Even Jordan worked under some sort of logic... Most of the time at least...

    That is interesting... I have a new theory. What if the thinner parts are because they're thin, but because there is a difference in the tightness of the pattern? Think about it. When a fabric is pulled, the threads get closer to each other, and they move back together tightly if you put something between them. If the pattern is less tight, then holes don't just jump back into place after you make a hole.

    That could also be explained by my TAR theory. When the bore was created, there was an explosion of the TP that ripped to the real world. But since it passed through TAR, the DO could no longer use it, since he can't get into TAR.

    That's where you lost me.
    If they didn't need the thinnest part to make the whole, why would they need it to close it, if it's no a specific location? It makes no sense.

    Agreed. So why would they need to be in a specific place to now close it?

    While I find this interesting, I feel that we are again over complicating things... What other levels of reality are there? TAR isn't another level of reality as much as a reflection of what is, much in the same way as the mirror worlds are reflections of what could have been. I wouldn't go as far as calling them "levels" of reality...

    I don't like the whole plane thing. Reminds me too much of D&D. Not that I don't like D&D, but I don't think that's the case here.

    No. This is where you've got it wrong. The great white book sais very clearly that the thinner part was already there. Infact, it sais:
    The way it's described doesn't only show that the thinner part was already there, but that they knew it was covering something, which means it wasn't just a hole outside the patter, but a bore a specific place which was covered by the thinner part in the pattern. Almost sounds like there was a bubble in the pattern that was covered by a thinner part of the pattern.

    While that's indeed an interesting question, I don't think we have the answer. For all we know, it was always there.

    I can't say I know much about this. Where are the details?
     
  11. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    Not on this forum they aren't.

    It's very clear that V'saine and the SG Resort are different places. You can take that for granted that we won't be letting anyone saying different slide.

    The experiment for drilling the bore could clearly be run from the Sharom at the Collam Daan (probably as that's where the necessary tech was). Obviously they had no need to be at the thinness at Shayol Gul and could quite successfully drill the bore from V'saine. The hard part to work out is not where they drilled from, but where they drilled into and the nature of that drilling.

    The rest, well its all conjecture, but I think that's probably our two most likely options. Either a prison reality level, or a discrete prison outside the pattern. Pros and cons with both of those theories unfortunately but I think gun to my head I'm leaning towards prison realities especially give what Demandred sees in the Pit of Doom and it would fit with the already established ideas of reality levels within the series as it is.

    I really wish that quote on the nature of the bore wasn't so wishy washy.
     
  12. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    I have to disagree on that. There have been very few cases in the series (infact only one that I can think of) that a weaving in one place was actually being performed elsewhere, and that's the bowl of the winds being used to change the weather everywhere at once. While we've seen people weave to the distance before, it was never THAT clear cut, there was always a line of sight, etc. At least that I can remember.
    Which means we have to look into other options we know are possible. The only other option I can think of is being there, at SG, in some other reality. That could be TAR, or one of the mirror worlds (since we were told that the DO exists in all of them, is imprisoned in all of them and if released, will be released in all of them), but TAR sounds more plausible to me, since in order to travel to the mirror worlds, one has to actually go there in body, which means they couldn't have been in two places at the same time.
    The only reasonable explanation I can think of is TAR, with their bodies in one place, and the drilling done in TAR in another place.

    Actually, and I remember someone here had this theory before, there is a third option. The pattern itself IS the prison. Since the pattern is a wheel, it could basically be used to cover something withing the wheel itself, not outside of it.

    I'm afraid I'm not really up to date on that, it seems. That reality level ideas are there in the series? Are you talking about the mirror worlds? or TAR? Because, again, I'm not sure calling them "levels" is the way to go. Though I guess that would depend on you definition of levels.

    That's because, again, I think we're overcomplicating this thing. I don't think that quote in any way gave us an idea as to the nature of the bore itself. At least not the part about the sky. While I agree this seems as though the open cieling gives a view to someplace else, that doesn't meen we can say anything about the nature of the bore because of it. We only know that the bore leads to someplace else, which we already knew.

    Honestly, I think Jordan went in over his head with that one. The drilling of the bore had an influence in specific locations, both at the Sharoom and SG. We also see that the effects are stronger the closer you get to SG, which shows at least SOME manner of specificality to the location. Saying, after that, the the bore is infact everywhere seems a little odd, and not really in line with the other details we have.
    Is it possible that we're taking this the wrong way? Is it possible that the bore IS in a specific location, but the idea is that the DO can influence the pattern not just in that location, and THAT's why they say it's not specific? Perhaps the bore IS specifically there, which is why closer to it the DO can more easily influence things, but he's not limited to it? he's influence is just greater the closer you get?
     
  13. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    That all depends on whether the thinness at SG was even necessary part of the drilling process. It may be, or it may not be.

    Certainly we know V'saine was involved in someway during the drilling, whether all the work was done from there, or if other remote work was done as well we don't really know. Certainly whatever they did was successful

    The biggest evidence for TAR being involved, is that Lanfear was involved with the project.

    And you run right into my biggest problem in all of this.

    The nature of the prison.

    Some things like the BWB I agree seem to make this option make sense. That there isn't a "prison" exactly and he's just outside of the universe unable to get in. But the thing that stops me from accepting that totally is what exactly about that situation is stopping from getting in. The fragile old pattern seems insufficient for acting as a prison, especially if it’s got a thinness in it as is suggested to already have existed prior to the drilling.

    So it would lead to that there is additional factor involved that stops him from breaking in.

    Okay thinking about this I'm going to try and do a bit of thinking on this and work through our options and how they might work

    a) Trapped out of the pattern, pattern itself is prison

    This would make the bore in some way a change to our reality that allows him to enter. Like a loosening of the threads perhaps, or a hole.

    This is in some ways a good option, but as I said above I just can't explain away how the pattern is strong enough to keep him out by itself without having to resort to a bore. It’s always stated that the DO needs to be free to destroy the wheel. So in this situation being free would be entering the pattern. I’m not sure why that would be necessary in order to destroy it. So it makes me think something else is going on. We know that the DO wasn’t able to touch the world before the bore, it’s just not clear why. Why is in incapable of destroying it from outside in this case?

    This theory seems to hang on the pattern being strong enough in and of itself to hold the full force of the DO out, but I’m not sure about that, it would make more sense to me for there to be there another factor acting on the DO to limit his powers.

    [​IMG]

    b) Additional Discrete enclosure outside of the pattern.

    Basically a big old box that stops the DO from interacting with the pattern from the outside holding him imprisoned.

    This works, however it means the Bore is a hole in this box. I think. It certainly explains why he needs to be freed etc., and why he cannot interact with the world apart from through the hole in the box.

    [​IMG]

    c) Prison reality plane.
    Similar to the above, but this time the Box is another reality discrete reality with its own pattern. It’s a little different to what people tend to think of being “sealed away outside the pattern” but kind of works for me.
    Think of the two realities, ours (OR), and the prison reality (PR), like two bed sheets next to each other. They are separate and not able to interact. OR has a thin spot on the sheet that allows us to peer through and see another sheet below, and we can sense the power on the other side. So we poke a hole in the PR sheet and open a hole for the DO to work through. He can’t get out entirely, and cannot interact with our world except through the thin patch in OR.

    In many respects b) and c) are basically the same idea, but a slightly different twist on the nature of the box. b) being the general case of a prison, and c) a possible example of how it might work. There is of course other variations on this situation different kind of prisons for example. But the common thread is there’s something containing the DO.

    [​IMG]

    But back to a) for a moment.

    What if what contains the DO and limits his powers is the nature of nullspace itself?

    That would make a) a much for viable solution that it in its present case. And if there is something in this, its most likely the following:

    Outside of time is an interesting thing to say. It's very possible that when trapped in nullspace that the DO is essentially in stasis, unable to act in the absence of a temporal field. It would explain quite nicely why the DO just doesn't smash the wheel already. Now the bore actually might be leaking time into nullspace and that the DO able to gain some level of activity to extend his powers when reaching up through the bore.

    So a big goal of his would be to widen the bore, letting more time slip in, able to exert more of his powers etc. It would explain the variations in the Forsaken experiencing time too based upon their "depth" in the bore. Which is probably the best example of this actually being something taking place.

    Of course this exclusion from a time field could also be extended to option b) where the absence of time comes not from nullspace, but from the prison itself basically acting like a Stasis Box.

    There's clearly some kind of temporal thing going on as evidenced by the forsaken, and I think something like this must be included in theories about the nature of the prison.

    As the DO says, "EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME"
     
  14. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Axis - while I appriciate the drawings and all, I think you're over complicating things again.
    1) While the description in the BWB is far from being perfect, it still sais that the thinnest in the patter is covering the power source. It doesn't mention covering something else with the power inside of it.
    2) Your time theory seem to forget that the whole point of the book is that the wheel itself IS time, repearing itself over and over again. The pattern is made of all the life threads of all the people, being woven into the wheel. While I agree with you that the DO doesn't, infact, feel time the same way humans do, I always thought of him more as a "prophet" (the Star Trek: Deep Space 9 prophets, not the bible ones), so he doesn't exactly have time the way humans do.
    3) I imagine the pattern being used as a prison will resemble option B more then opetion A, because the wheel and the pattern are round, like so:
    [​IMG]
    Since they live in the pattern already, then they only need to bore through the wheel itself. Not really sure what difference it makes with all this null space you keem mentioning. It's all metaphorical anyway... But you get the idea.
     
  15. Axis m'Troutilas

    Axis m'Troutilas Gaidin

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    If you think something is uncomplicated.............. then you haven't look deep enough.
     
  16. Kaldam Luciere

    Kaldam Luciere Watson Gaidin Gaidin

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    I think you've officially earned the title 'Theory King' Axis.

    :)
     
  17. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    You know, there are still a couple of levels between "uncomplicated" and "over complicated" :D
     
  18. tone al'ucas

    tone al'ucas

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    I actually posted this in re-reads, but it is probably more applicable here, although given the level of detail some have given it, I'm not sure.. I'm shortening it from the original post and getting to the point


    I kind of had a moment while I was thinking about it in the shower (yeah, I know, get a life). As pointed out in several of the books, after Rand takes his 2nd un-healable wound, it is referred to as beating in counterpoint to the wound Ishmael gave him. It got me to thinking, and I am sure I am not the first as the forums are huge, that this is how Fain is going to play into it. He is going to seal him in the Bore with the Dark Lord and that is how he is going to stop it from continuing. Moridin told him something to the effect of " destroying the Great Lord is really incredibly naive" when he visited him in the dream (LoC maybe, while they were having their fireside chat).

    I was also reading Mark Lawerence's King of Thorn's(really good) and a similar counterpoint situation, totally different scenario, occurs which kind of set me on that line of thinking.

    So I don't think he ends up killing the Dark Lord, just occupying his time for all eternity, beating in counterpoint.

    Thoughts?
     
  19. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    I actually had a similar theory in the old forums.
    I am more then convinced that Rand will somehow use Fain in the last battle, though there are many theories as to how exactly that would be done. Either using him to kill the DO (we know Fain's evil can destroy the DO's evil, after the cleansing of Saidin) etc.
    Actually, in the MoL first chapter published in the TOR website, Rand is thinking something which really reminded me of the scene when he declairs he's going to cleans Saidin, which again makes me think he isn't going to settle for just locking the DO again. He has a plan to either destroy him, or make Fain fight him or whatever that will make this THE last battle. I've had debates in this very forum regarding this being THE last battle, not just A last battle, meaning the wheel will either break, or the pattern will change somehow, and there would be no more last battles. A little off topic but still important
    So basically yes, there are many such theories out there. I'm not sure how, but I'm AM sure Fain will play a big role in the DO's defeat.
     
  20. Midian Venamar

    Midian Venamar

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    I'm with you on many points in there Aulrick. I don't know if Rand exactly will use Fain per-say, but I do think Fain's evil will play a huge role in the Last Battle. I do think you're right about it being THE last battle, as opposed to another last battle in the cycle of the wheel, although that's just speculation.