Effect of Bowl of Winds: Ebou Dar and Shayol Gul

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Al'Amar El'Haldir, Jun 19, 2016.

  1. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    After the Bowl of Winds was used in the Farm outside Ebou Dar, channeling in a radius from that spot was screwed for a long time. Saidar and Saidin were hard to control as proven by the details of Rand's Seanchan campaign in Altara and Elayne's gateway to escape the Farm. It was channeling on a huge scale to break the Dark One's hold on the weather/seasons.

    In Shayol Gul, we know that the windfinders were using the bowl as a special team to counter the Dark One's attempts to crush the people around Shayol Gul. Zaida and Ituralde had an interesting conversation where she says that they're meeting the Dark One's strikes and countering with their own. She says that without them the Dark One would have crushed them with gales and other nasty things. Ituralde tells her to do her part; and he'll do his.

    Zaida's comments tell me that the weather battle at Shayol Gul was on the same scale as the one in Ebou Dar; but for much longer ... a few days.

    Shouldn't that have made it nearly impossible for channelers to weave saidar and saidin around Shayol Gul? Any thought?
     
  2. Zanus Athara

    Zanus Athara

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    I've only read the series once and can't remember everything perfectly but maybe this could be some form of explanation/reasoning?:

    As you yourself say channeling Saidar and Saidin was messed up after the Bowl of Winds was used. Maybe the key here is after the Bowl of Winds was used? Clearly for the people channeling into the Bowl of Winds at the time Saidar wasn't screwed (since they were able to successfully use it), however that isn't the whole story, to be able to definitively deduce whether it was during or after use we would need to know whether people could channel (not into the Bowl) whilst other people were using the Bowl of Winds. Of course what happened at the Last Battle seems to suggest that it is possible, but during the Last Battle time was distorted so that could explain why people could channel and under normal circumstances it would not be possible?? It's a shame nobody else channeled whilst the Bowl of Winds was being used in Book 8...

    It's an interesting question which I'm intrigued about as well actually :)
     
  3. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    It could also be that using the Bowl at Shayol Ghul was localized enough it didn't twist the Power. That was the reason that the Power was so screwy around Ebou Dar -- the Windfinder used the Bowl to affect a much larger area than it was meant to. TDO would have been trying to crush those people at Shayol Ghul, while using the Bowl at Ebou Dar was meant to correct the weather over the whole continent.
     
  4. Zanus Athara

    Zanus Athara

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    Of course, I didn't think about the area in which the Bowl was being used to alter the weather. That seems more reasonable.
     
  5. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thank you for the reply, Zanus :) The effects were felt immediately after the use of the Bowl; starting with Elayne's difficulty in forming the escape Gateway.

    Thank you for your response, Mother :) You point out a very important factor to take into account. But that can be used to argue both sides. Rand's Asha'man started feeling the effects of the Bowl's usage at a great distance. I don't have an exact reference; but my understanding is that it was tens of miles away from Ebou Dar. The situation was so messed up for damane that they killed their own. Bakuun's army (in my estimate) was about 50 miles outside Ebou Dar; about 40-43 miles away from the Farm. The deduction would be the greater use of the power, the greater the distance. And in the battle at Shayol Gul, the Bowl was being used locally; while other channelers were also using the powers locally. They should have felt some small impact.

    Another point is that the Dark One was trying hard to bring his weather wrath on his foes; and it would have required significant power to counter him. And that should in turn bring about some impact on channelers, who were practically channelling next to the Bowl.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  6. Tobias Carawin

    Tobias Carawin Citizen

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    In my research I find that it was extremely hard to control weather once it had reached a certain size. I believe the reason why it was so difficult to repair the weather in Ebou Dar was because the Dark One's weather patterns were large and had been in place for a long time. If this theory is correct, one could assume that it was easier to combat the Dark One's weather in Shayol Ghul since it had not reached the massive size of his previous patterns, and they were made recent enough to counter before they got out of hand.

    Just some thoughts on this subject before I go to sleep.
     
  7. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    I guess it comes does to what triggers the negative effects of the Bowl on channeling. Is it the usage of the Bowl itself? Or the effect of the Bowl on Saidar and Saidin around where it was used? Or the negative weather (DO's e.g.) resistance to the Bowl?

    My opinion is that it is the effect of using the Bowl in an area. The Bowl requires Saidar to use; but draws Saidin in a braided weave that goes up from the Bowl into the sky. This braid, and the strength it requires and magnitude of weather effect might decide the radius of channeling flux. And I don't think it has anything to do with the Dark One; because I'm guessing that if anyone were to try to use the Bowl to change the weather in the 4th age, the same flux would result.

    So, the size of the weather pattern certainly plays into it. And I'm guessing the attempted size/strength of the weather pattern plays a role. This size requires a proportionate use of the power. Did the windfinders channel individually into the Bowl at Shayol Ghul? Or did it require small circles of 2-5? Or larger circles of 6-13 like Ebou Dar?
     
  8. Ninya Evoneigh

    Ninya Evoneigh Super Cool Kid Aes Sedai

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    You're also forgetting that the first time the Bowl was used, saidin was tainted (and thus warped everything it touched), while during the Last Battle saidin was cleansed.

    It is my opinion that that is the defining difference between the two events, and scope and area play no part at all. :)
     
  9. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thanks for the different and interesting angle, Ninya Sedai :)

    We have no evidence that the taint on saidin affects the actual weaves. Nynaeve's delving of Asha'man minds told us how the taint works. It coats the channelers brain with tainted threads that penetrate into the brain, causing different states of madness. These threads can be removed and the brain healed. The taint affects the weaver only. Otherwise, all saidin weaves would be corrupt; healing included. The Eye of the World is another piece of relevant information. The Eye was created post-taint by male and female channelers, who all died in the process. If the taint had any effect on the weaving, the Eye would have been corrupt by the time Rand and co. found it.

    The only hypothesis on the taint affecting saidin weaves is The Ways. And that isn't even a theory, if I remember correctly.

    But if the taint on saidin was the cause of the channeling flux; how would it have affected channeling Saidar?
     
  10. Ninya Evoneigh

    Ninya Evoneigh Super Cool Kid Aes Sedai

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    The Ways are indeed the thing that give this theory the most legitimacy.

    As for your last quesiton- that was a massive amount of tainted saidin with no human conduit to maintain control of what it does being thrown into the air in every direction, with the specific purpose of changing a very basic part of nature. I am not at all surprised that it might cause problems with both sides of the Source, and probably other things, too, we just didn't stick around long enough to see.
     
  11. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Compared to the Ways hypothesis, we have stronger evidence that the taint doesn't corrupt the weaves: Nynaeve's discovery of how the taint works, saidin healing weaves, the Eye.
     
  12. Ninya Evoneigh

    Ninya Evoneigh Super Cool Kid Aes Sedai

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    I am quite content with my simple explanation. ;) I'll leave the debate to the experts!
     
  13. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    :lol Who might they be? And where are they? It would be so much easier if an expert/informed opinion pops in and answers the question thoroughly ;)
     
  14. Tobias Carawin

    Tobias Carawin Citizen

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    From The Path of Daggers ch. 2

    This is Moridin thinking about information that was just provided to him... The name meant nothing to him. But . . . a ter’angreal to control the weather. . . . In his own Age, weather had been carefully regulated with the use of ter’angreal . One of the surprises of this Age—one of the smaller, it had seemed—was that there were those who could manipulate weather to a degree that should have required one of those ter’angreal . One such device should not be enough to affect even a large ring?

    I also have learned that Robert Jordan has commented about this
    He states that the bowl was not intended for use over large areas and the resulting problems were due to the bowl being used beyond its original design parameters.
     
  15. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Thank you, Mother :) I should have read your informed reply more carefully; but I have a tendency to the contrary.

    Thank you Tobias :) The reason for the flux in the power was for using the ter'angreal to cover an area beyond its intended scope.
     
  16. Almira ni'Caldazare

    Almira ni'Caldazare Citizen

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    Time flowed differently around the Dark One and Rand. The time change may have effected the Bowl...
     
  17. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    It is probably due to the effect radius, Almira. Mother posted it; but I didn't listen :) Hopefully I won't get a taste of the chair of remorse :lol
     
  18. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    :p Sometimes I do know what I'm talking about. :lol I'm reading Path of Daggers right now, and I read up on the Bowl from the Companion. ;)
     
  19. Al'Amar El'Haldir

    Al'Amar El'Haldir Citizen

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    Whew; no chair of remorse (hopefully) :look . I will do my best not to doubt Mother in the future; May the Light illuminate you :bow
     
  20. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Mother Amyrlin Seat

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    Always doubt! Always question! I never object to people questioning what I'm saying. :hug