Aviendha's viewings

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Cairsora, that was a terrific analysis of the visions, and the idea that Avi might have changed the nature of the ter'angreal is interesting, though I don't believe that is what happened. I think that is just what the ter'angreal does on a second journey. But it's hard for us to know for certain.
 

Leo Kian

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I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, I will check when I get home but from what I remember reading various people in her viewing refer to Rand as 'the Dragon' and not as the 'Car'a'carn'. Any significance do you think? Surely the Aiel wouldn't be so persistent and then abandon their name for the saviour.
 
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Leo Kian said:
I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, I will check when I get home but from what I remember reading various people in her viewing refer to Rand as 'the Dragon' and not as the 'Car'a'carn'. Any significance do you think? Surely the Aiel wouldn't be so persistent and then abandon their name for the saviour.

Aiel also don't use hereditary leadership and are often scornful of the Wetlander concept of kings, queens and nobility. Suddenly they're going to start deferring to Aviendha’s children on the grounds of whom their father was? Doesn't seem likely to me.

I keep coming to the conclusion that the whole Aviendha going to Rhuidean arc was botched from the beginning and should have been left out. There’re just too many things that don’t add up and no time to try and explain it in a satisfactory manner.

Edit: fixed some spelling and grammar issues
 

Leo Kian

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Good point Kallaes!

Obviously I can't be anywhere near certain, but I get the feeling that the Avi-Rhuidean arc is much more the work of Sanderson and Jordan, it seems to fit more in the work of Sanderson's that I have read rather than in Jordan's work.
 

Ty al'Djinn

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They changed with her interaction when she Delved them, wanting to change what they could show her. Aviendha herself thinks so.

The futures do not have Rand, because he dies or retires from Creation. I can see his loves doing the same after the children of the dragon are old enough to guide themselves- they would trust in the dragon's peace.

All Aviendha need do to change the future is ensure the Aiel are bound as well.
 
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The sound of it may be that way, but I don't believe that it would be in there if Jordan hadn't wanted it. It's far too significant for Harriet to have allowed Brandon to just dump something like that in.
 

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Yeah sorry I should have been more clear, no doubt Jordan wanted her second trip to Rhuidean in there, but the way it is written smacks of Sanderson to me, more so than many other parts of the books he has written.
 
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Mmmm.. Honestly, the only times I've noticed a severe departure in style have been in the interactions between Mat and Talmanes. They seem forcibly jovial, and that is not historically their relationship. Other than that, I guess I'm not familiar with Sanderson's own works and may not realize when he is writing in his own style.
 
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Emerylde niRohan said:
The sound of it may be that way, but I don't believe that it would be in there if Jordan hadn't wanted it. It's far too significant for Harriet to have allowed Brandon to just dump something like that in.

I wasn't meaning that it was simply something Brandon dumped in, just that it with the way the sections were executed they might have been better left out. I have a hard time seeing how any of it will have significance for the final book. I could have seen it as a plug for follow-up outrigger novels but I'm not aware of any plans to see those written.

Emerylde niRohan said:
Mmmm.. Honestly, the only times I've noticed a severe departure in style have been in the interactions between Mat and Talmanes. They seem forcibly jovial, and that is not historically their relationship. Other than that, I guess I'm not familiar with Sanderson's own works and may not realize when he is writing in his own style.

Mat was definitely forced in Towers of Midnight. People didn't like how Sanderson wrote him for The Gathering Storm and it seemed like there was a clear attempt to write what people wanted rather than what the character should be.
 
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Kallaes Doon said:
Mat was definitely forced in Towers of Midnight. People didn't like how Sanderson wrote him for The Gathering Storm and it seemed like there was a clear attempt to write what people wanted rather than what the character should be.
I sort of equate it with the lines Jar Jar Binks had in Phantom Menace. It all came across forced and not amusing at all. I totally agree with you.
 
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When Moiraine asked the Wise Ones about going through the rings, didn't they say that the visions in them were just possible visions of the future, and that it because things are always in motion, it can change?
 
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The viewings during Aviendha's second trip to Rhuidean are different. On her first trip, she went through the three arch ter'angreal, which is where she sees possible futures based on her choices. On her second trip, she went through the glass columns and saw the visions of the Aiel's past, like Rand and all other Wise Ones and clan chiefs who survive the test. As far as we know, no one had ever passed back through the columns a second time to see the vision of the Aiel's future history, so there's no real precedent for knowing if those things will definitely happen or not.
 
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What I want to know about the most is the extent of the pillar's abilities. Are they like Min's which seem to rely on a Pattern existing, or if the viewings that they make are a foreshadowing of Rand's victory at Tarmon Gai'don since they are from the Age of Legends. Maybe the viewings are a form of long forgotten prophesy. There is only one way to find out, wait.
 

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It seems pretty likely that they would have to rely on the Pattern existing. After all, if the Pattern doesn't exist there is no future to foresee.
 

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I got the impression from the book that Aviendha changed what the glass columns do when she did her trick with ter angreal.

I see no reason why what Aviendha saw could not be what does happen in the future, cultures come and go, others take their place. The opening lines of each novel say that exact kind of thing. I'd be sad to see the Aiel go, and sad to see the Seanchan ruling basically the whole world, but the possibility is there.

Has Aviendha saved the Aiel from extinction yet? That was her purpose as far as the Wise Ones were concerned, wasn't it? That future viewing should provide plenty of material for Aviendha to work her ass off to make sure what she saw *doesn't* happen. Though from what the other wise ones say, only a tiny fragment of aiel will survive, regardless. Only one line of her offspring was shown in her viewings, maybe another line survives?
 
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Midian, please keep references to the new book out of any thread not specifically marked for it. Not even in spoiler code.
 
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Good man.


First one to spoil my enjoyment of reading this final book spoiler free gets a serious ass kicking.


I already had the cleansing of saidin spoiled for me when WH came out, and I'm not having a repeat


:)
 
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