Aviendha's viewings

[Morrighan Daghdera]

2 points:

1. I agree that the Seanchan need to know that sul'dam can channel, specifically, that their Empress can be held by a collar. THAT would put a stop to the collaring & balance the playing field, IMO. I so want Avi to hold the bracelet since she doesn't have any pesky oaths to inhibit her action.

2. I *think* that if the Wise Ones routinely went through the ter'angreal a second time to determine future outcomes, then they wouldn't work so much in TAR. TAR is more of a risk, so I would think the *simplest makes sense rule* would apply & we would've seen other Wise Ones discussing the 2nd trip.

 

[Seth al'Kerr]

2 points:

1. I agree that the Seanchan need to know that sul'dam can channel, specifically, that their Empress can be held by a collar. THAT would put a stop to the collaring & balance the playing field, IMO. I so want Avi to hold the bracelet since she doesn't have any pesky oaths to inhibit her action.

Or... it would undermine Tuon's authority without changing the system and she would lose her rule to a non-sul'dam member of the High Blood. If someone tries to force the change on them from the outside, I think they're likely to just overthrow Tuon. If Tuon accepts that the system is immoral and decides to change it herself based upon Mat's reaction and her experiences at the Last Battle, then it might work.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

She has already claimed a position of moral superiority to Mat by being aware that she could channel but choosing not to do so. And yet she still enjoys training da'mane. I'm not saying that Avi should rule Seanchan. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a sepuku (google it) type reaction by the Seanchan upon the revelation. I just don't personally see her changing her mind about her decision to not channel AND to not collar all of the other women born with the spark without something close to cataclysmic happening.

Avi could claim the 5th & Mat could be Emperor. Furthermore, Avi's viewing stated that an agreement had almost been reached with the former Empress...Tuon seems rather adamant about collaring women even after resisting Rand's ta'veren attempt. The Aiel's future, in part, is dependent upon certain changes within the chain of events she saw. Rand doesn't seem likely to yield on this point.

*Something* has to happen to address the collar issue. To me, Tuon needs to walk a mile in the da'mane shoes so: 1. Rand gets what he wants in there are no chained women. 2. Aiel get 1/5 of Seanchan to assist in their future. 3. Tuon realizes that she really is the same as all other women who can channel & collars suck.

I'd love to hear other ideas that would equally & realistically impact the practice of collaring women, which MUST be resolved for multiple reasons.

 

[Seth al'Kerr]

I know what seppuku is, and I never said they were going to kill themselves over it. I said they'd kill Tuon over it if it's not very carefully introduced.

I think it will be introduced, but I don't think it will be because someone collars Tuon. I think she's going to be saved by, or greatly impressed by the valor of, some or another marath'damane. She's a good person, and I think the optimism of the series will play out by her coming to the decision based upon a good act, rather than conflict like you're talking about.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

I'm sure it will help a lot to see uncollared men and women channeling at the Last Battle. Perhaps Tuon will have her life saved by a Marath'damane during the battle.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

I'm not saying that she isn't a good person. Thank you both for supplying the same alternative idea of "maybe she'll be impressed/saved by a marath'damane". Anything's possible. I do think we all believe that the agreement to be reached with her must include the end of the collaring practice.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

I did copy his idea from previously didn't I? My bad...

I agree that the collaring has to be ended. But just getting her collared probably won't be enough. If she were to, say, spend a week in the life of a Damane being broken, she might understand. I don't see how that would happen though, not now that she's declared herself as Empress. Before that, I could see it happening if someone didn't know or believe her about who she was perhaps.

Unless it's possible that she has the spark? Is she young enough that it MIGHT not have materialized? Or perhaps it did, perhaps she has channeled, and didn't even know it? Would she have been tested to see if she had the spark, being an heir to the Throne?

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

I *think* she's one of the types who would never channel unless trained to do so. I'd give her a year & a day in gaishain white to get a clue.

 

[Murgabi]

First off, Tuon sucks !!! Any human being who finds the process of damane's breaking as soothing can be called as a Monstrous Creature, not a human being! I would love to see Tuon collared.

Second, the whole Avi's viewings might be considered as FALSE!
- I cannot think of the possibility that Aiel and Seanchan fights for 20 years and the borders between them are almost the same.
- I do know that Aiel are not fools! If Aiel decide to break the peace and attack first. They have an insurmountable advantage as they'll march through the gateways to Seanchan's each major city's damane kennels and handle them before fighting Seanchan soldiers.
- Reading that BT and WT were conquered by Seanchan is completely uncomprehending.
- If we assume that any of the following characters are alive after TG - Mat, Perrin, Logain, Egwene, Elayne or Nynaeve, they will be the ones that won't tolerate slavery in this continent and they'll come up with some GRAND plan to kick Fortuona's small backside (In Mat's case he will kick gently) and instill sense into her. Therefore, damane will be NO MORE! And no overpowering forces of Seanchan.

So if we conclude that Avi's viewings are false. It means that these viewings were corrupted somehow by forsaken (through Nakomi?) with the purpose of seeding further chaos among humans.

Of course, all of my musings can be considered as stupid if one may say that Brandon Sanderson got drunk while writing the whole Avi's POV chapters at the end of ToM. :evil

I hate those viewings.

 

[Alkeis Cha'ane]

ok so tuon didnt get involved with teh war etc, likely she is swayed, fairly quickly considering, ironicly, its gona be 3 factors proly, the woman she will want as her adviser, then when she shows of her damane rand wil laugh and in the long run she will learn how elaida tried to deal with everyone. and finally, the logic will impart on her that the empire is useing channelers is as foul as channelers channeling, so either it is a poisoned well or it isnt reguardless of who pulls out the water.

 

[Corwin Matheos]

Correct me if I am wrong, but when Aviendha went to Rhuidean and saw the ( possible ) future of her people there was no mention of Rand defeating or being defeated by the DO, more to do with the Seanchan conquering the lands and their struggle with that.
Anybody have any thoughts on this?

If Rand didn't win, there would be no future. However, if the DO would win all bets would be off, since there would be no Pattern, and all of the prophecies would remain unfulfilled. So, not one prophecy can be uderstood in a sense that it means that Rand would actually win.

 

[dark ta'veren]

perhaps mistress Anan will be healed and turn around and save the empress (may she live forever) with the one power.
she does have a good rapport with the most powerful ruler in the world.

 

[Kiante Draktis]

Did you just contradict yourself Corwin? What you mean to say is that all prophecy after the Last Battle must assume that Rand DID win, right?

 

[Thoros Gehaldy]

I'm just going to say that it was depressing.

 

[Luar Ivoran]

I'm just going to say that it was depressing.

Very depressing.

 

[Morrighan Daghdera]

First off, Tuon sucks !!!

Gives Tuon a year & a day to spit more often for balance. She trusts Mat at his word & Birgitte gave her awesome extra stabbities on how to treat men of Mat's nature.

WARDROBE!!!

 

[Halbert Al'Kintion]

Actually Alath whilst it were not stated flat out that Rand won the way things were worded at that point would seem to strongly indicate/insinuate Rand did win after all how could he "force all the natiosn to hold to the Dragons Peace" and Bear more childern other then those Elayane has had off him if he failed at the LB? I think that was meant to be self explanatory and self evident from how Jordan/Sanderson wrote those chapters.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

After all, look at how Tuon responded when she found out. She still thinks channeling is vile, and responds, "Fine. Perhaps I can. But I choose not to."

This made me think that Tuon is a complete moron. If it's as simple as that, then damane could be given the choice to not channel. But they are not given a chance, and I was very annoyed that Tuon chose to justify her actions that way.

 

[Cairsora Nihar]

I have several thoughts on the matter of her viewings.

I think that Avhienda actually changed the nature of the columns when she delved them. She had been thinking that the first journey was no longer a challenge right before she did so. Prior to her interaction with the ter'angreal, a second trip would have produced the same result as her attempt at a third. Her second journey didn't actually start in the columns, as you recall. It began with her first step away from them, and she decided to go back in after that. There's no way to prove this, however, as it was against tradition to go through again.

If I'm not mistaken, nine generations are actually represented by her viewings. The first eight show grandmothers and granddaughters, while the last is simply a mother. Assuming each woman is approximately nineteen years old when they have their child, that's about 175 years covered.

Avhienda experienced a sense of certainty about these viewings. They don't feel like the potential paths of the other ter'angreal. It's relatively safe to say that this is what will happen in the future if she doesn't do anything to stop it. Furthermore, that future is realistic. The Seanchan have channelers, and they keep kidnapping channelers from the opposition. Eventually, they're simply going to be more powerful than their enemies. This is especially believable now that they have gateways. This is also why the Aiel don't wash over them and win an easy victory. Although they have superior warriors, the Seanchan have more channelers, and those are trained to fight (as opposed to Wise Ones who rarely do so).

In one of the visions, they are close to making an agreement with Fortuona regarding channelers. I doubt she would be willing to give up damane altogether, but I could picture her agreeing to keep the practice of collaring restricted to the Seanchan homeland. I have a feeling that the negotiations were at a hitch with the releasing of Aes Sedai and Wise Ones who had already been captured. This provision isn't agreed to before the fighting starts, and the whole agreement falls apart. Nothing will change with Seanchan society because the Empress pronounces that anyone who chooses not to channel is fine.

The main thing Avhienda needs to do is make sure that the Dragon's Peace includes the Aiel. After all, that's one of the main complaints of her descendants. Rand al'Thor didn't know what to do with them, and they didn't know what to do with themselves other than fight. He needs to give them that purpose before he leaves.

As a side note in response to an earlier comment, it would indeed be totally awesome if Satalle was Healed, although I'm not sure it will happen. She's learned to live without the Power, and can possibly work with others who burn themselves out while studying all of those new ter'angreal in the White Tower.

 

[Cairsora Nihar]

Oh, and sorry for the novel. I wanted to reply to pretty much everything that's been said so far...