About Taim, 100th time

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Corwin Matheos, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Btw, nothing to do with the topic, but are we 100% sure Sammael is dead?
     
  2. Jerm Walt

    Jerm Walt

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    yup. RJ stated in an interview that "Sammael is toast."
     
  3. Ilenora Tremaile

    Ilenora Tremaile

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Taim being any of the Forsaken in disguise. But that aside, there's at least one thing I can think of off the top of my head that nobody has mentioned here yet. The Raefar Kisman PoV in... was it Winter's Heart? Anyway, when they're in Far Madding. He recounts his orders by different masters; Taim & Demandred both ordered Rand dead, while Moridin only wanted "what was in his possession".
     
  4. Tehmpus

    Tehmpus

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Corwin, I'd like to respond to your topic.

    Everybody seems to have their own idea as to who Taim is and what he represents. My theory is definitely in the minority. Most people seem to think that Taim is either a Chosen in disguise or just what he appears to be, a false dragon from the current age. My theory says none of the above.

    Here are a few clues:

    1) Taim's aiel comment, which has been discussed already in the thread at length.
    2) Lews Therin's constant hatrid of Taim since the very first meeting, yet inability to recognize other disguised Chosen (such as Ishamael or Lanfear)
    3) Taim's knowledge of the power.
    4) Taim being thrown from his horse and captured in Saldea on the same day the Dragon banner is unfurled and Rand battles Ishamael in the sky of Falme.

    The third and fourth points seem to be the most poignant. How could Taim be captured in Saldea, yet fighting Rand above Falme at the same time? Ishamael is good, but he can't really pull a being in two places at once trick. Clue#3 is subjective, but probably the best argument against Taim being just a false dragon from the current age. Compare him to Rand. Rand is the dragon reborn, yet his attempts to learn channelling without a teacher prove fairly fruitless. Eventually he captures Asmodean and trains fervently with him daily trying to learn the power, yet Taim has an even better knowledge of the power than Rand at their first meeting. Taim is weaker in power level, yet more skilled in weaves than Rand. If Taim were just a jumped up false dragon from Saldea, how could he have possibly learned a method for finding men who can eventually learn to channell? That skill alone proves it to me. Only someone from the age of legends would have even considered the possibility of locating other male channellers magically. No one from the current age (excepting perhaps a red ajah aes sedai) would WANT to find a male channeller, let alone puzzle out a method for detecting them. Such a method would require that you knew someone else who had the power in order to test it.

    So if Taim isn't from the current age, and yet is not a Chosen... then what exactly is he?

    My theory is that Taim is a forsaken from the age of legends (not a Chosen since he wasn't caught in the DO's trap). I use the term "forsaken" loosely in that I'm referring to the age of legend's definition. A forsaken back in that age was merely a darkfriend channeller, not necessarily a Chosen. Extrapolating from Lews Therin's obvious recognition of his physical form with hatred, I'd have to say that Taim was an enemy of Lews Therin that he dispatched in the age of legends. However, instead of capital punishment, he was imprisoned in a stasis box with the intention of attempting to rehabilitate him after the war was over. I will go on to further guess that when Ishamael started using tel'aranrhiod to find ter'angreal and other things (like the gholam, and the 2nd most powerful sa'angreal for a man) that he released Taim from his imprisionment and put him to use in his machinations. Most of that is of course my own theorizing, but based loosely off of Lews Therin's reactions to him, and the final deduction that Taim cannot possibly be from the current age, yet also not a Chosen.

    I hope this gives you a different perspective rather than the usual Mazrim Taim theories.
     
  5. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    The general idea is that the Taim we see isn't actually Mazrim Taim. It's Ishamael posing as him. Meaning that somewhere, somehow, Ishamael got rid of him and replaced him. Which probably wouldn't have been difficult for him to do.

    If he's a Forsaken, that explains it. If he's serving a Forsaken, that also explains it, since he would've been taught all of those things.

    That's pretty funny, I've always been wondering if that were possible. To seal a human in a stasis box, and have them released now, in the current age. It's a very interesting theory. But you base it on the assumption that it cannot be a Forsaken - which is a false assumption. You also base in the assumption that he cannot be a 3rd ager, which is also false, since it's a possibility. Taim can most certainly be a Forsaken, as explained above. Being replaced, for instance. And if he were mentored by a Forsaken, he could well be from this age.
     
  6. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Here is why I disagree:

    Taim, when thrown off the horse in Saldea, was still Taim. He wasn't killed until later, when Black Ajah rescued him. Around the same time Rand dispatched Ishamael, and DO could give him Taim's body.

    Lews Therin still wasn't there when Rand was facing Lanfear and Ishamael.

    We don't know that Taim is weaker in power than Rand, please quote if so.

    There was only one person I could think off that Lews would hate with that much passion, and that's Ishamael, if there was another that person would be mentioned. RJ was too good of a writer to plan just introduce crucial information about some criminals in stasis boxes in the last book of the series.

    I think I will stick to Taim = Ishamael theory.

    PS

    I think Sammael released gholam (to take care of troublesome Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar).
     
  7. Jerm Walt

    Jerm Walt

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Best evidence I can remember is when Rand first brings Taim to the farm. He tells Taim to seize as much of the power as he can. When Taim does so, Rand gauges how strong he is and thinks something along the lines of "he can hold nearly as much as me. If he is not holding back that is..."
     
  8. Tehmpus

    Tehmpus

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    This post is directed more toward Tazren and Corwin than anyone else.

    I'm an old time poster who had returned recently to view the boards in anticipation of the final book of the series. Tazren, I've read many of your posts in other threads, and alot of your stuff makes sense. Corwin, I responded to your thread mainly because your thread title gives the impression that you're going a little crazy in trying to find answers about Mazrim Taim.

    Let me be clear. I don't really feel any desire or need to sway your opinions. You have your theories. I have mine. I can debate with you a bit if you like, but for me the proof will be in the pudding when the final book comes out, and hopefully most of our unanswered questions will be answered. My theory posts aren't meant to sway the tarvalon community. I just like to sometimes share my thoughts and ideas with many of the other good posters on our site.

    So, if you like, I can respond to some of your criticisms and debate a bit, but I don't feel any animosity at others with differing viewpoints, nor do I feel any great need to prove you guys wrong.

    I will though point out that when a person creates a theory, it is by definition not proveable. One must take the facts and clues left by Robert Jordan, then attempt to deduce storylines that aren't stated outright in the books. These deductions aren't just guesses out of thin air. They are based off of various facts/clues found in all of the novels. In this particular thread, I've only mentioned 4 of the things that influenced my final theory. However, these are deductions, and not assumptions. Describing things as assumptions gives the impression that the theoreticist just made up stuff instead of basing their opinion on sections of the books. My deductions may be correct or incorrect... but they are not assumptions.
     
  9. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Does he HAVE to be one of the forsaken? Really?
    I mean, can't he just be a regular darkfriend like the rest? The head of the male equivelent of the Black Ajah or something? I mean, a forsaken would just be too obviouse.
     
  10. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    @Thempus

    What animosity, dude? I just disagree with your points, and I stated clearly why. NO animosity here.

    And yes, the thing was driving me crazy until someone did write that Taim=Moridin is one of the theories that's been around.
     
  11. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Thempus: I like debating, so please, do post your criticism of what I said!

    Aulrick: Taim knows too much to be just a regular darkfriend. He doesn't have to be a Forsaken ... but he's got to have some sort of connection.
     
  12. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Like being the head of the male equivelent of the Black Ajah? :p
     
  13. Midian Venamar

    Midian Venamar

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    That still wouldn't explain his knowledge of the Aiel from the AoL.
     
  14. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Like being the head of the male equivelent of the Black Ajah? :p[/quote:206mhd3s]

    Because he knows lots of weaves other people do, and has knowledge he shouldn't have as a third ager. That doesn't come from just heading a darkfriend organisation. He's got to have gained that knowledge from a male Forsaken. There's no one else who could've taught him.
     
  15. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Head of the Black Ajah didn't know absolutely anything special until Mesana taught her.
     
  16. Kallaes Doon

    Kallaes Doon

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    Like being the head of the male equivelent of the Black Ajah? :p[/quote:23hrhjeb]

    Because he knows lots of weaves other people do, and has knowledge he shouldn't have as a third ager. That doesn't come from just heading a darkfriend organisation. He's got to have gained that knowledge from a male Forsaken. There's no one else who could've taught him.[/quote:23hrhjeb]

    Rand also knows lots of weaves that others don't. Many of which were not learned from Asmodean. Part of Rand's insanity was a break down between him and past life knowledge. Contrary to a common belief, I don't see Taim as being sane and don't see any reason the same couldn't explain his knowledge.
     
  17. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Due respect, but we've seen people creating weaves on instinct before, and using them from then easily. Shouldn't really be a problem.
     
  18. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    But people haven't been creating them en masse. Rand seems to be fairly unique; there haven't (iirc) been any mention of other male channelers hearing voices that literally tell them how to create new weaves. And women certainly don't seem to just make them up with no effort. Isn't it more likely that a Forsaken took an interest in Taim, offered him immunity and then passed on some knowledge? Or that a Forsaken usurped his identity. Considering that they Forsaken have made attempts at controlling most nations in the known world, why wouldn't they be going for the Black Tower as well? It would be strange if they didn't.

    Seems more unlikely that he'd be a copy of Rand.
     
  19. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    TDR, Behind the Lock:
    Later that page:
    There also comes to mind Nynaeve healed Logain and stuff like that.
    As I recall it was actually rather common. In fact I think it was mentioned in one place specifically that with TG approaching, old talents and secrets were being rediscovered...
    Wasn't it?
     
  20. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    And your own quote states that she did it, but had no idea how.

    I'm not saying that people, especially Talented, can't discover new weaves, or that others can't experiment and invent stuff. But how could Taim have learnt so much, and all of it on jus own? He's a wilder. Nynaeve and Egwene had a training in the Tower as a basis. Sure Nynaeve can Heal intuitively ... But Taim isn't just using some Talent. He knows lots of things. Too much, imo.