About Taim, 100th time

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Corwin Matheos, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    I was rereading LoC last night and really paid attention to what Taim was saying. He called Aiel "so-called Aiel", and definitely displayed a knowledge no one who wasn't well familiar with Age of Legends wouldn't have. Beside Forsaken, no one else calls Aiel "so-called Aiel". Actually, it wouldn't make any sense if anyone who didn't personally know them during AoL would call them like that. That lead me to conclusion that Taim IS a Forsaken, and that he MUST be one of them, not just one of their pupils.

    Now, RJ said that Taim wasn't Demandred, and I am sure it is so.

    Also, we all know that Lews Therin displayed maniacal hatred whenever Taim was near.

    It is said and well known that Demandred hated Lews Therin. However, the only Forsaken Lews can hate that much is not Demandred.

    To cut the long story short - to me it seems possible that DO appointed Demandred as Nae' blis and that DEMANDRED = MORIDHIN, while ISHAMAEL = TAIM.

    What do you think, is this possible? To me it is easily conceivable that DO gave Ishamael Taim's body when he died. How certain are we that Moridhin is Ishamael? Could all signs be only a "red herring"?

    If so, it would also resolve a dilemma about who killed Asmodean, my favorite puzzle.
     
  2. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Moridin is Ishamael. The way he thinks about Rand, the fight between Dark and Light, suggests that pretty strongly.

    There's also this:

    No other of the Forsaken have been released long enough to have known about Warders for a "long, long time". Demandred certainly shouldn't have been able to know about it for long at all. There is other circumstantial evidence as well, such as matching themes between Ishamael's lair in TGH and Moridin's as described in later books.

    There's also a popular theory that Moridin is Taim. Again, circumstantial evidence, such as the colours they favour matching. It's also speculated that he's a student of Ishamael/Moridin, and that he therefore knows things he shouldn't, such as the truth about the Aiel.
     
  3. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    He can't be a student. Even if he knew the truth about Aiel, if he was born in this age it wouldn't make any sense to call them "so called" Aiel.
    Apart for the Warden bond, which is actually a pretty strong argument, everything else could be a part of writer's attempt to throw off readers. And I am not sure if the same full sentence could be read only in one way.

    If he had known of the bonding for a thousand years already, why would he be suddenly wondering about it and comparing it to the knowledge of AoL?
     
  4. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    He's not wondering about the Warder bond per se ... but about the sheer amount of stuff combined, especially what he's seen recently. That particular quote is right after he watches Aviendha unravel the gateway they used to Travel out of Ebou Dar. That shocked him deeply - just like it shocked everyone on the other side. It was thought impossible. So he's got good reason to consider all the other things they've come up with recently, or that have recently been revealed.

    As for Demandred=Moridin, there's also the crux that they've been seen in the same scene, btw. Winter's Heart, chapter 13.

    There are other, minor clues, as well. Ishamael has been seen torturing rats. As has Moridin. That's pretty similar to the references Jordan made to Mesaana's alter ego in the White Tower.
     
  5. Kallaes Doon

    Kallaes Doon Resident Citizen

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    It actually makes a lot of sense for someone from the late 3rd Age to call them "so called" Aiel. Everything that the average, and even well educated, non-Aiel 3rd Ager believes about the Aiel is wrong. Aiel are a sophisticated and cultured people. They are not blood thirsty, illiterate savages as commonly believed. Given what everybody "knows" about them, then seeing a group that are completely different, it isn't strange that Taim questions the claim that they are Aiel. It's either that or be forced to accept everything he thinks he knows about Aiel is wrong. At least he isn't refusing to see them as they truly are which is what so many other characters are doing.
     
  6. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Sorry, but to me it doesn't make sense that anyone who is only familiar with their culture and history would call them "so-called" Aiel.

    And here is the part that actually convinced me that Taim and Ishamael are the same person:

    Kill him FINALLY?

    Rand THINKS that Ishamael is dead, however Lews recognizes him and goes berserk.
    As Whites would say, the only logical explanation about why would Lews go crazy and become murderous maniac around Taim would be if he knew him personally and hated him. And who is the person Lews hates the most?

    And yes, I concede that Moridin is probably not Demandred, but I really like this Moridin = Taim = Ishamael theory.
     
  7. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Well, another reason why Lews Therin went crazy could be because Lews Therin is crazy :p But yeah, it's a very strong indicator. I believe that was a reason used for the Taim=Demandred theory as well, so it's applicable in the same way to Ishamael = Taim.
     
  8. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Can I ask a crazy question?
    How on earth does LTT know that the forsaken can be reborn in new bodies enough to recognize Ishi?
    So far as I understand, non of the forsaken were killed and reborn in the AoL, it only happened during the books. So why would LTT not think Ishi is dead?
     
  9. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    The Dark One is referred to as "Lord of the Grave", and it seems to be a common superstition that he can claim the souls of the dead in some manner. Perhaps that was more widely known in the AoL?

    Aside from that, it could be an intuition. He knew several of the Forsaken intimately, they were good friends, and then they were enemies and fought a lot. So he could be recognising characteristics that remind him of the Forsaken in question.

    But he's gone on crazy murderous rampages in other circumstances, so I believe he's just crazy. :look
     
  10. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    I think that Lews recognizes his "soul", not necessarily his physical appearance. The same way he is able to recognize Darkfriends in book 13.

    Forsaken also recognize Lews Therin, even though he has a new body.

    And I don't think Lews is crazy at all, he is just unbelievably sad and has unthinkable amount of regret.

    And I think the paragraph I pasted above makes perfect sense if we think that Taim is Ishamael, much more than it would make if he was Demandred (and we KNOW he isn't Demandred).

    Just remember the very first chapter of the first book.
     
  11. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Oh the first chapter is a complete FBO for me. The whole thing was supposed to take place AFTER the bore was sealed. I understand Ishi was locked "closer" to the surface and therefor was released earlier, or some such, but how could he be completely out after LTT sealed everyone in? That makes no sense...
     
  12. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    He was only partially sealed, so he was able to partially escape the Bore every now and then, sufficiently to influence the world somewhat. It was said that he instigated the Trolloc Wars (the Dark One was rumoured to have appeared to the Shadowspawn, but in all likelihood, it was Ishamael). He also appeared to Hawkwing in the guise of an advisor, among other things, advising him not to let the Aes Sedai Heal him. More recently, during the events of New Spring, he personally killed Jarna Malari (who was Head of Black Ajah before Alviarin), and he was the one who appointed Alviarin the new Head.

    So he was never completely out. Just temporarily, and probably only partially.
     
  13. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Appearing to people is one thing. But during the first chapter he actually HEALED LTT, which he shouldn't have been able to do.
    I can't remember now, did he use Saidin or the True Power? Did LTT notice he channelled?
     
  14. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Maybe he was able to channel a bit. You know, like they do in tel'aran'rhiod? Where they can channel very weakly, if they use the weaker types of ter'angreal to get there. So if he can project himself out into the world somehow, maybe his channeling works in a similar manner, and is significantly weakend.

    I would assume he used the TP, since he didn't Heal LTT. According to what he said, he only did something temporary, that none of the female Aes Sedai would've been able to do.

    As for sensing his channeling ... there are other inconsistencies in the early books. Like what Traveling looks like.
     
  15. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Like what? I know book 1 has some strange things in it, but I can't remember traveling changed too much. I seem to recall that when traveling to TAR there is a shimmering thingy instead of a gate, but only when traveling there. What other things have you noticed?
     
  16. Kallaes Doon

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Most 3rd Ages think they know what the Aiel are like and refuse to accept what they see. They insist on forcing their preconcieved notion of an Aiel onto them despite evidence to the contrary.

    With them it goes:

    A - All Aiel are mindless savages
    B - Some Aiel follow Rand.

    They can't accept the any evidence that contradicts statement A so they insist on seeing the Aiel who follow Rand as mindless savages.

    Taim isn't really showing any different thought as to Aiel

    With him its:

    A - All Aiel are mindless savages
    B - People claiming to be Aiel follow Rand

    Like the others, Taim doesn't really accept anything that contradicts statement A. He does recognize that the people following Rand aren't mindless savages which leads him to doubt the claim that they are Aiel.

    The only place I can think of off hand where we see the Forsaken's reaction to the change in the Aiel comes from Sammael in Lord of Chaos and it is quite different.

    There's know questioning that they are Aiel in this passage, just amazement at the transformation they went through.
     
  17. Kallaes Doon

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    He doesn't know they can. It's only later that he learns they are being recycled.

    Lews Therin's reaction to Taim also isn't invoked around the Moridin version of Ishamael which requires an explanation of how Lews could recognize a reborn Ishamael in Taim but not in Moridin.
     
  18. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    That is an excellent question I actually haven't thought of before! How DID LTT not recognize Moridin at Shadar Logoth but can recognize Taim?!
     
  19. Corwin Matheos

    Corwin Matheos

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    About Aiel, here is POV of one of the Forsaken:

     
  20. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

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    Re: About Taim, 100th time - pls respond, it's driving me cr

    Because he's mad?

    In the early books, there weren't any gateways for travelling. People just sort of shimmered and disappeared. I don't really care, it's so minor ... I just meant that it could be that Ishamael channeled the TP, or it could be that he channeled the OP and Jordan just hadn't considered men sensing each other's channeling at that point. Or that LTT was just too mad to realise it ...