2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Yeah, his nasty snarling comment to "Mierin" is the first conscious dollop of crazy wisdom. There certainly isn't any hint of it in the first two books, I'm sure of that much. From what we know later, for the taint to manifest in Rand, he has to channel for a while, and he doesn't really do any regular channeling until The Dragon Reborn.

Oh, and Kassina Sedai, the Oath Rod does only work on channelers, but that information comes from "Caddar", so I'm not sure how far to trust it... I can't recall any of the Aes Sedai saying anything about the Oath Rod regarding non-channelers anywhere throughout the series; I'm ~90% sure of that, so... there might be a minor comment somewhere that slipped my mind.

 

[Imzadi Hopewind]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Thanks Cold

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

My pleasure Imzadi Sedai .

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Re: Suian and Min's viewings. I don't think it's a matter of Suian not trusting Min's viewings. Suian is being practical here: We don't know when it's going to happen, tomorrow or in 10 years, so we'll set that aside for now. Can't change it, I've been warned, now move on to things I can change. (Like Min's clothes and make up. )

Wil - Amico wouldn't have been bound by the Three Oaths anyway. Those Oaths are removed when an Aes Sedai becomes Black Ajah.

Oath Rod. The Tower's Oath Rod only works on female channelers, according to Sammael.

I'm inclined to believe that the Dark Oaths are sworn on the Oath Rod. The Oath Rod is what gives Aes Sedai the ageless face, and if the Black Ajah weren't bound to it, they'd stick out. As for it being a production, it *hurts* to have the Oaths removed -- see the library article above, where it mentions two Aes Sedai -- Aes Sedai! -- weeping, and one screaming. Maybe there were other things that were done to the BA Sedai, but they'd have to use the Oath Rod to swear again.

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

The ageless face with Black Ajah has always been a sticking point for me, Mother. You provide good points and food for thought, but I still don't think the Oath Rod is what specifically binds the Black Ajah to secrecy.

Spoiler

As much as a scholar as Verin is, she wouldn't be uncertain if the Oath Rod could remove her oaths if that was how she swore them. Since she already knows that one can use the Oath Rod to remove oaths, it would be obvious that she could use it to remove the Black Ajah oaths, if that's how they were taken.

Unfortunately, there isn't any black-and-white evidence to say, "This is exactly how it is beyond any doubt." That being said, I feel like the evidence leans toward the Black Ajah oaths being sworn in some other way.

Also, about the ageless look, the Black Ajah wouldn't lose their ageless look just from removing the oaths (unless they were stilled).

Spoiler

When the women seeking the Black Ajah start using the Oath Rod to test each other, they use it to remove and re-take the Three Oaths. They don't lose the ageless look when the oaths are removed, so I would guess once they have the ageless look, it's there for good unless they are stilled.

No disrespect intended Mother, of course! Please don't interpret my disagreement that way. :bow

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Discussion isn't disrespect. :P Nor is disagreement.

Keep in mind that I'm going on a couple years' old memory of the final books, and I don't have them in front of me to look up stuff, so evidence you post from them is helpful.

What about the Aes Sedai who join the BA before getting the ageless look? They'll eventually age. And we don't have evidence of the Dark Oaths shortening life like the Oath Rod does, so the BA would be living long and eventually looking old (after 500 or 600 years, but still). So a long lived Aes Sedai who looks older would be a red flag that something is different.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and trying to think around the issues behind removing the Oaths, and how the BA still managed to blend in. We may never actually know how the BA took their Dark Oaths...but it's fun to think about.

 

[Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Perhaps Verin's description of swearing the dark oaths could be taken to mean that there were things done during the ceremony in addition to swearing on the Oath Rod. In that case, simply "unswearing" on the Oath Rod wouldn't solve the problem completely.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

I always assumed they un-swore the regular oaths and re-swore new ones, so the end result would be the same effect.

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Very good points, Mother and Maibella. Especially about Aes Sedai who become Black Ajah before having the ageless look, and the shortened life-span. Hmm, these points sway me much closer to a 50-50 split. There is also the possibility that this falls under some sort of inconsistency, but I feel like that's a cop-out. This question goes into my list of things to watch for; I'll make sure to compile all evidence on this issue, and hopefully we can sort through it more conclusively at the end of the series.

By the way Mother, I was being (mostly) facetious about the disagreement/disrespect comment; I know you're not Elaida . I would be a much more reluctant poster if I had to worry about a public flogging.

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Chapter 9, what the heck is with all the viewpoints? It changed from Mat to Perrin in between one paragraph and the next, then did the same with Egwene to Elayne to Rand later on. I kept having to stop and back up to double-check when the change had happened, because I was still happily lingering inside someone else's head. It felt like an odd summary of what everyone was up to rather than a fleshed out chapter. Like a lamer version of chapter 1 (aka fake prologue).

 

[Kassina Tendar]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

I had the same thought, Megana. That was confusing. It suddenly jumped to Perrin's head and I had to reread the last couple paragraphs a few times to make sure that was actually what was happening. It was like a prologue with jumping between heads in one chapter, but minus the breaks that make it obvious.

Re: Suian and Min's viewings. I don't think it's a matter of Suian not trusting Min's viewings. Suian is being practical here: We don't know when it's going to happen, tomorrow or in 10 years, so we'll set that aside for now. Can't change it, I've been warned, now move on to things I can change. (Like Min's clothes and make up. )

Yeah, that does make sense. I think just being in Min's head at the time colored my impression of it since Min was so frustrated with Siuan over it.

 

[Imzadi Hopewind]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Oh, thought it was an error in the norwegian version!! yeah I was thinking about that too Meg.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Yeah, the different viewpoint thing is annoying.

As for the oaths for the BA, I don't think it is as simple as swearing new oaths on the Oath Rod. If so, the BA has access to ANOTHER Oath Rod, because it would be risky to steal the Tower one everytime they include a new sister... And as Cold said, if that were the case, Verin would know that the Oath Rod would remove her oaths, and not the least, EVERY Black Sister would know that, and it would be a way too easy way out for some of them... It has to involve something more, something that binds a Black Sister forever to the DO...

 

[Megana Vallentin]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Hmm good point...I guess I never put that much thought into it. :$

 

[Cold Manshima]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

If so, the BA has access to ANOTHER Oath Rod, because it would be risky to steal the Tower one everytime they include a new sister... And as Cold said, if that were the case, Verin would know that the Oath Rod would remove her oaths, and not the least, EVERY Black Sister would know that, and it would be a way too easy way out for some of them... It has to involve something more, something that binds a Black Sister forever to the DO...

I never considered the Black Ajah having their own Binding Rod, Aduiavas Sedai! This is a great possibility, that the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah managed to find their own somewhere over the years. With everything that's come to light, the best guess seems to be a Binding Rod plus some special Shadow ritual. I definitely think Verin's statements there are illuminating for this mystery.

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

I wonder how many binding rods there are. We see two, the Oath Rod and whatever the one is that Sevanna has later.


Chapter 1, Elaida

• Elaida is quick to dismiss anyone she sees as a fool or useless -- to her detriment.
• Elaida's Foretelling about Andor -- the way she interprets everything her way without considering other ways to interpret it makes me want to shake her.
• She's obviously ambitious -- has thoughts of "could have been" the Amyrlin.
• She plans on killing Rand. No thought to his ta'veren-ness. She just thinks he should be disposed of so he doesn't destroy Andor. Do Foretellings work like Min's visions? If they're seen/spoken, they come true? Is she foolish enough to think that she can dodge what's been Foretold? :scratch
• Tower politics: White stands with Blue -- Blue and Red stand against each other.
• And in just seconds, Elaida manages to align herself with the Black Ajah. :facepalm
• Reds never have friends outside the Red Ajah.
• Power wise, do we ever find out how Elaida and Alviarin compare? Elaida is really strong, so was her request for Al to walk with her a request, or was it an order disguised as a request?

Chapter 1, Bornhald

• Ordeith. Killing Tinkers. Not much to say here.

Chapter 1, Suroth

• Interesting -- she uses the same razor edge image Rand does.
• Where is she -- answered later, islands of the Atha'an Miere.
• Armies of the Night, 1000 years ago, led to the leashing of female channelers.
• It's amusing to see people making plans and plots and knowing how they turn out.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

I think the Oath Rods are what in the Age of Legends were called the Nine Rods of Dominion. But that is just my theory, not a fact. Maybe the Companion will answer this ok

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

I had that thought, too, Adui, but the library has this about that:

Some historians believe that the Oath Rod was one of the Nine Rods of Dominion (TWoRJTWoT), but the "Rods" were actually symbols of office (Robert Jordan's Blog; December 19th, 2005).

 

[Rhed al'Tere]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Link to that blog post.

 

[Aduiavas Ida]

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 8-14

Well, so much for my theory. But it is still possible that the BA has another Oath Rod