2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Jun 7, 2015.

  1. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 50-56

    Ah, cool. Been a while since I read the last book. :lol
     
  2. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 50-56

    Well considering how the last Age began, I think the world could use a few heroes then. :look
     
  3. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    I think it would come down to the intention of the Aes Sedai. If she knows the ditch will be used for war, she probablywouldn't be able to do it. But if she can convince herself that that's not what it's for, she might be able to.

    Chapter 44:
    -Bran is startled by Tam suddenly acting like a commander and shouting at everyone to hold.

    Chapter 45:
    -The Whitcloaks killed the Tinkers' dogs. Why? :scratch
    -Perrin is a good leader and doesn't realize it.
    -People who already know what they should do and know how to do it still come to Perrin for confirmation
    -Aram eyes the weapons along the wall and Perrin thinks it's only because he's a Tuatha'an and they make him uneasy.
    -Luc makes a 'joke' saying that he knows something of taking an enemy into your bosom.

    Chapter 46:
    -It's kinda funny imagining Elayne and Nynaeve walking through Tanchico brandishing barrel staves at anyone who looks at them.
    -Elayne assumes they men are after her, not Nynaeve. (even though they blatantly push her aside to reach for Nynaeve) It does make sense, though. As far as she knows, there's no reason for anyone to target Nynaeve and not Elayne as well and since there were no channelers with the group who attacked them, it's probably not the Black Ajah. (or anyone who would care that they were there hunting the Black Ajah) Growing up hearing about assassination attempts, it makes sense she would assume that someone had recognized her as the Daughter Heir.
    -Poor Egeanin freaking out when Elayne suggests that maybe she could be taught to Channel. In Seanchan culture, it must be a terrible thing to suggest that someone can Channel! (she's also shocked of course because she didn't realize it was something that could be learned)
    -Not realizing she's Seanchan, Elayne thinks Egeanin is being standoffish because Elayne and Nynaeve didn't act very Aes Sedai-ish during the fight. She then hurries off, having heard Domon's name I assume.
    -Elayne thinks Nynaeve just doesn't want to admit she's wrong when she thinks the men had been after her.
    -Perhaps Liandrin and Rendra are sisters. Rendra mentions her sister used to threaten to tie her braids to a bush. :arch

    Chapter 47:
    -As has been mentioned, it's very strange that Siuan didn't feel her Warder being killed. She may have been a bit distracted, but it's not supposed to be a subtle thing based on the reactions we see later in the series. Had Jordan just not decided how that worked yet when he wrote this book?
    -Min's perceptive and notices that Gawyn didn't specify what side he was on when telling her what was happening.
    -I, too, want to hear about Laras's past. :lol She apparently was such a 'lively girl' that she got herself near to hanging.
    -Elaida's been planning the attack for awhile. Siuan notices the high number of masons, who turned out to be soldiers 'sneaking' into the Tower.
    -Elaida made up a bunch of charges against Siuan and Leane (though the truth itself, had Elaida known it, might've been enough), including helping Mazrim Taim escape.
    -Leane and Siuan are quick to make use of the severing of the Three Oaths. It's what helps them escape Gawyn.
    -I never found Gawyn too unlikeable before this, but he's so obnoxious here. :mad I do see where he's coming from, but knowing Siuan as we do, it's sooo frustrating. He can be so single-minded and unwilling to accept his own ignorance. He's the reason Siuan and Leane weren't freed before their Stilling and he killed Hammar and Coulin Gaidin! :balefire For all his faults, at least Galad could never be called hot-headed.
    -Min has a viewing of Gawyn either kneeling to Egwene or breaking her kneck. :blink Am I forgetthing some crossroad? What could've caused the second outcome? Min says she felt like it came down to something that had done that day that caused one of those two outcomes.

    Chapter 48:
    -I really want to read what was in Elayne's two letters. :blink
    -Rand thinks Min's safe in the Tower as Elaida's coup is going on.
    -There are lions in the Waste.
    -Asmodean tries to convince Rand that knowledge could pardon any crimes and recoils when Rand disagress. He also asks Rand how he feels about his destiny and his thoughts on his own future madness and death.
    -Rand thinks that Natael addressing Rhuarc and Moiraine as equals is just a gleeman trait.

    Chapter 49:
    -Rand underestimates the problems the Aiel will cause and puts Moiraine up with Lanfear as the people threatening him.
    -It's refreshing to see people treat Moiraine with respect. The Aiel, all these years later, still have a strong sense of having failed Aes Sedai, but they don't remember why. Actually, they have not failed those Aes Sedai at all. They were tasked with keeping the ter'angreal and the Aiel themselves safe, which they accomplished and it helped win the Last Battle.
    -Moiraine mentions that more Aes Sedai will surely come to the Waste, implying that it's because they now know there are Aiel who can Channel. (which they should've been able to figure out by themselves beforehand) This makes the Wise Ones understandably uneasy...
    -It doesn't sound very comfortable to eat lying on your chest. :blink
    -The Aiel eat corn and cornbread, while those from the wetlands don't know what corn is. Also, tomatoes.
    -Rand fumbles through Aiel ways. He thinks that since gifts are so important to the Aiel, he can give a gift to Aviendha to smooth things over between them. He shoudl've realized that because gifts are so important to the Aiel, they probably have a lot of rules/assumptions/customs surrounding them.
     
  4. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    The people of Rome did do that, at least laying at sofa and eating. So I guess that's how Jordan were thinking Aiel were eating? :cheese
     
  5. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    TSR: 56

    Hm I think I skipped a chapter somewhere, I don't recall discussing Faile leaving, of course I got behind and had to do a ton of chapters the past week so I might just not remember doing it.

    Anyways, Perrin writes an incredibly sappy letter to Faile, almost groan worthy levels. Sorry the whole “I am the wind whispering your name” line is so darn Cliche, I don't think a human being could write that in real life and not hate themselves, The Aiel show up and give news of a massive trolloc host being on it's way, and that the Village is surrounded now. Perrin goes out and overlooks the preparations, The women and tinkers are in the green with the children, saying “we will get the children out if the shadow's army breaks through” Perrin apologizes for having Faile escape and the women say “It is okay, we knew what you were doing, and a man who would not try it would not be a man worth marrying”

    Perrin orders his companions to guard the non-combatants if need be, they argue but Lord Perrin puts his foot down and makes it clear what their duty is. Perrin goes to the white cloaks who are preparing to cut their way out when the Trollocs come. Truth be told, I would have let them do it, especially with what happens during the battle, having a calvary charge break the Trolloc lines at some point in the battle probably would have done very well to break the Myddraal's plans a little, especially if the Children of the Light were to try to break through before the Trolloc's horde arrives at the defenses of the two rivers folk, Trollocs are majorly comprised of on foot creatures, and a Calvary Charge, in an open line against Infantry should put a chunk into the Shadow's forces.

    Perrin chooses his battlefield, choosing north as that is the direction Faile is in Verin and Alanna are there as well, which surprises Perrin, and frankly might I say. Verin is a dark friend as is Thomas, they could have easily snuck off flashed the Black Ajah gang sign at a few Fades and be about your day and she actively helps defend Emond's Field, and the White Cloaks, who are sworn to fight the shadow, SIT ON THEIR RUMPS.

    Screw, The Whitecloaks, the only thing that would have been more satisfying than seeing Artur Hawkwing lay into The daughter of the nine moons, would have been if the Horn of Valire called the founder of the children and HIM laying into the Children of the Light for all the crap they have pulled over the past few hundred years.

    Sure the Seanchan are probably more evil than the Children, but Paladins that violate the basic tennants of Paladin Oaths, and the White Cloaks are pretty much paladins more or less, are a pet peeve of mine, midway through the conversation they hear “ISAM” yelled by the trollocs, which disturbs everybody.

    The battle begins in earnest, and it goes poorly, with the Two River's folk falling back step by step, to the point where the Women Folk end up joining the battle, which is a very reminiscent callback to the Story of the Fall of Manetheran, with the women fighting along side the men at the river. Which makes it a complete shame that nobody did the battle cry of the Red Eagle, a small thing but the situation called for a reference to the old blood being strong.

    A young boy comes up to Perrin, and tells him someone is attacking the Trollocs, Screaming “Deven Ride” and someone attacks the trollocs from the north, between the pincer the Trollocs are at the mercy of the humans, and Perrin finds that Faile is leading the men from watch hill, who had already been preparing for a fight, but she convinced them to go south instead of presumably holding their ground

    And this right here, is a properly done strong female, she DOES things, we are not told about them, we do not hear about her exploits off hand from some random source who we never met before we SEE them in action and they earn the awesome, mind you just like a strong male character does, mind you I think a good many of the ladies in Wheel of Time are awesome, Faile just..fails as often as she is awesome and usually fails hard, but so does Perrin. Especially over the next six books, nobody really comes out of the Shaido storyline looking rosy though.

    After the Whitecloaks head off, vowing to hang Perrin, Fain sulks off into the shadows, heading to Tar Valon, but stopping bye to spread the rumors of Manetheran breaking off from Andor in Caemlyn, which is a connection I just made this readthrough.\

    TSR: 57

    Rand's party arrives in Alcair Dal, finding the Shaido there as well, Rand leads the Tardaad into the meeting place, as the Aiel warriors sing a battle hymn, Rhuarc moves to raise his veil, and Rand stops him, not wanting this to lead to killing, they go through to the gathering, where Sevanna is demanding that Couladin be allowed to speak but it is forbidden since he has not been to Rhuidean.

    The two reveal their dragons, causing a hush to fall upon the valley, Rhuarc says that it is not possible that Couladin has the dragons as he has never been to Rhuidean, Couladin counters that he snuck into the city in the night, and refuses to say what he saw because what he saw was holy.

    Then Couladin makes his mistake, saying that he saw the glory of the Aiel, and Rand lets slip the secret, that the Aiel once followed the way of the leaf, this causes Chaos to erupt. Couladin has lost, and Rand is announced as He who comes with the dawn, and Rand does one of the smarter things he does in the series, seeking a way to calm the Aiel Down, he makes it rain.

    And this is one of my favorite sequences in the books, everything of the Aiel's history was tied into this moment, the lack of water in the waste, the secrecy of the Aiel's history, and a hot headed clan chief that would force Rand into breaking the Aiel, the way Jordan wrote it you can almost feel the pattern being woven, and the lace of the Age, a moment that must be, and I think Rand can feel it as well, with the solem way he talks, almost in a depressed tone, he does not want to do what he does but he knows he has to.

    Lanfear appears, berating him for what he has done and Rand has expected this and has been expecting it from the start, ever since he left Tear he knew that she would try to trap him, Then Lanfear lets slip about the access keys to the Chodan Kal, Rand makes a gateway..and goes to Rhuidean.

    TSR: 58

    Rand goes to Rhuidean, chasing Asmodean through an endless void, the forsaken sends waves of fire at Rand, I wonder if skimming takes a good amount of the power The attacks each send at each other are not exactly on the level of what one would think of gigantic spells being flung back and forth, they arrive in Rhuidean, and make a mad Dash for the Plaza where the Ter'angreal are littered, and they reach the Ter'angreal at the same time and end up splitting the power of the Sa'angreal, and begin to fight physically and with the power, sending flows at each other and cutting them, eventually Rand decides to draw in power from the fat little man and manages to sever Asmodean from the Dark One.

    Lanfear appears and tries to convince Rand to join her using the Sa'angreal to overthrow the Dark One, she also oddly tells Rand that if the other Forsaken knew he had it they would attack him for it.

    Didn't Rand and Asmodean just use a -vast- amount of the power? Each were splitting half the power of the thing to use against each other wouldn't the other Male Forsaken have sensed all this going on? In book 9 everybody sensed Rand and Nyneave cleansing the taint.

    Rand and Asmodean head back to Alcair Dal, where everyone of important has gathered on the ledge, The Shaido and some other Aiel have left, and the ones that remain are the ones who will follow Rand, and Rand's journey enters part 2 in full, He is the Dragon, and now he has the people of the Dragon at his call, and now he must gather the Wetlands.

    With this book many of the main characters transition into new plots.

    Rand goes from “Am I truly the chosen one” to “Now I must unite the nations” while the end of book 3 was him realizing he is in fact the dragon reborn, it was this book where he fully came to terms with it.

    Perrin starts on the path of a Lord, which takes him the rest of the series to deal with.

    Matrim's lack of a story ends with this book, in the first three he mostly went form place to place at random, and the Foxes and Snakes have fully set him on the path to The Band of the Red hand, and ultimately to Ebou Dar to kidnap the Daughter of the nine moons.

    Egwene started her path as a dream walker, training to master her abilities which is a side plot mostly however her being here, training with the Aiel is what gives her a great deal of the skills and outlook to deal with things to come later.

    Nyneave shifts from “find the black ajah” to “fight Mogidhean”

    Elyane does not really have a plot as of yet, she has been the side kick to Nyneave and Egwene, as each has become a proper main character in their own right.
     
  6. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    The ending of this book kinda weirds me out now. Every group accomplishes great things, but in hindsight we can see how they're just stepping stones to the larger things that are coming. Instead of seeing these things as endings, I'm seeing them as beginnings. Darn wheel. :giggle
     
  7. Imzadi Hopewind

    Imzadi Hopewind Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Perrin said something to Faile that she have to go to tell Andor etc in the chapter where they married. It wasn't very clear there.
     
  8. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Oh know, I know that..but I must have skipped that chapter in my recaps, cause I don't remember writing about it.
     
  9. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Maybe when Rand and Nyneave cleansed the Taint since they were in a more central location, and much closer to the rest of the channelers of the world. Also when they cleansed the taint they were using a mixture of both halves of the One Power. Another thought might be that the aura over Rhuidean blocked the presence of so much of the One Power being flung about. :look
     
  10. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Gaaaaah this is my favorite book. Finished book. Notes soon.
     
  11. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    In regard to people not feeling the Power being used during the Rand/Asmo battle: wasn't that all saidin? In that case, the only ones who would feel it were male channelers. The male Forsaken would definitely have an idea of what is going on and would most likely want to stay as far away as possible. Other male channelers aren't really a part of the story yet. I'm sure there are men all over Randland who felt something but didn't know what it was because they don't realize that the special abilities they have are actually their ability to Channel. Whereas during the cleansing of the Taint, both saidin AND saidar were used; lots of women can channel and therefore lots of women were drawn to the site.

    Unless I'm missing something?
     
  12. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    I'm finally caught up! Finished TSR the other day. FOH is one of my favorites so I'm excited to get to that.
     
  13. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Oh they would want to stay away while it is being used, but after if I were one of the forsaken I would travel there, hide outside the city until I stopped feeling the power being used, and sneak up and murder whoever won, because they would be exhausted.
     
  14. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    But remember also that Rand and Asmodean together only used HALF the Power that Rand later wields when he cleanses the Taint. Then he uses both statues, here he and Asmo only share one of them... That, combined with the remoteness of Rhiudean and the limited number of people able to feel it may be enough to not make people feel it :look
     
  15. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Chapter 52, continued
    Is the male a'dam maybe different enough from Seanchan a'dam that they don't make the connection? The necklace and bracelet rather than a cuff and collar?
    Question answered: They make the connection.

    Chapter 53
    Perrin's visions show Egwene becoming Amyrlin, but I don't know what Mat and Rand's mean.
    The Tinkers don't fight, but they help anyway. They fight their own way.
    Perrin makes a solid connection between Luc and Slayer.
    If Loial is the author of WoT, then he won't record his journey to the Waygate -- he's too humble / modest / not-a-hero for that.
    And I cried. Totally cried when Perrin and Faile married.
    Why did Faile use Zarine rather than Faile?

    Chapter 54
    Nynaeve's instinct to keep the male a'dam is right -- can you imagine Elaida using it? Or any of the Reds?

    Chapter 55
    Perrin is sure he's going to his death.
    The women in a circle holding whatever they can use as a weapon. Last defense for the children.
    And the Tinkers are ready to save the babies if they can.
    Then the women are there just as the men need help. The women the men want so much to protect, there fighting Trollocs as calmly as fiercely as the men. And Bode (I think it's Bode)! Getting picked up by her braid and still fighting.
    Bloody Faile.
    And the Two Rivers run the Whitecloaks out.

    Chapter 57
    Mat tries to get Rand out -- he's ready to run but not without Rand.
    Interesting that Couladin uses the word "holy" for himself (for Rhuidean?).
    Couladin makes a terrible ally for Sevanna. He didn't give her all the information she needs.

    Chapter 58
    Rand "remembered" how to fold reality.
    Asmodean has black wires, not the one cord that Aginor had.
    Avendesora :(
    Lanfear: "[Asmodean] was never very good at breaking through a shield; you must be willing to accept pain, and he never could." We see this later with Rand at Dumai's Wells when he's already in so much pain that more pain from breaking the shields didn't even register.

    The prophecy at the end is from Sulamein, whose name Maria Simons of Team Jordan uses here, and Sulamein's title is Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun. Which made me laugh because Sulamein/Maria is all knowing. :lol
     
  16. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    This whole chapter makes me cry Every. Single. Time. Something about the way that evil comes to such a quiet, friendly place, and the way the people stand together against it just hits me right in the heart.
     
  17. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    I knooooow. Oh god my favorite.

    They all know they're going to die. They know that. And yet they all are there, the women are there just as they're needed, no one stops fighting, no one gives in. The Tinkers are ready to run with the babies if they have to and even that is admirable because can you imagine knowing you're going to die with children? That you'll have to watch children -- your own and strangers' -- die at the hands of Trollocs?

    And the women (and girls) are badasses with their wood axes and meat cleavers. They know they're going to die. They know they're going to die and they fight anyway. (Ok, the women might know that Faile is trying to rally the northern Two Rivers folk, but they don't know if she can, or if they'll come, or if they'll make it in time, or if Faile got eaten by a Trolloc on the way there, or what.)

    This chapter really shows what the Two Rivers is made of. People willing to stand and die for their homes, their families. Hell, some of them had even lost their homes already. All they had was the land and whatever they'd taken from their farms.

    Also, this battle stands in stark contrast to the battle at Dumai's Wells. This one, in the Two Rivers, is clean because there is a clearly defined enemy. Trollocs and Myrdraal are bad. They want to kill us, so we kill them and run them out of the Two Rivers. At Dumai's Wells, there's such a description of the violence and the atrocities committed by all sides, the hopelessness and the killing and everyone gets dirty and loses a part of themselves at Dumai's Wells. Neuxue gives a really good analysis.
     
  18. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    Just reading your recap of the Two Rivers battle made me tear up. :look
     
  19. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    I can't help but compare that chapter with the story of Manetheren that Moiraine told back in EoTW... How they just STOOD and never gave in until they were dead...
    And yes, it is a really powerful scene, and a stark contrast to a lot of the battle scenes that we get later on. I don't think we get such a detailed good vs bad battle until ToM in Maradon, and then in aMoL...
     
  20. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

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    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising to the end! Plus Pro of FoH

    While I was reading it, I kept hearing Moiraine's voice (or what I imagine her voice to be) from the very first book, telling the story of Manetheren. Manetheren! Manetheren!