2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Rhed al'Tere, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    16,429
    Location:
    Drøbak, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Liandrin is not a damane though, she is so'jhin. So she never gets that shield untied :look
     
  2. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    11,529
    Location:
    Kiruna, Sweden
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    So reading this again (I'm on Chapter 22 now! I'm slowly catching up) is reminding me that it's always kind of bugged me how Elayne and Avi became first-sisters, when really it should have been Egwene and Avi.
     
  3. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,070
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Didn't she get collared as well though?
     
  4. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,180
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    But Seanchan could also be a giant continent that stretches across the equator and down into a southern hemisphere, as illustrated here. (No idea where the image comes from, but possibly the Big White Book? I can check.)
     
  5. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    16,429
    Location:
    Drøbak, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    And yes Mother , that map is from the Big White Book. I have it at home, although my version is black :p
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  6. Murun

    Murun

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Quite a widespread feeling. At least they stay friends (on screen they talk only once after Avi going to Ebou Dar, when Elayne can't channel in the onset of her pregnancy). But on the present plotlines, what chances would this close relationship to Egwene offer to Aviendha in terms of learning and personal growth? They grow into a leading role in two different groups that interact friendly and sometimes cooperate, but with limited trust, being aware of differing goals. What about the resulting strain?
    Or could you think of alternate plotlines to make this worthwile?
     
  7. Megana Vallentin

    Megana Vallentin Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    3,725
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    I always imagined there would be a scene someday with Egwene and Aviendha on opposite sides, representing the White Tower and the Aiel channelers. They made that agreement about exchanging channelers, but I can see any number of reasons why the White Tower might eventually push the boundaries or either side might take umbrage at something that happens during those exchanges. I thought it would be very interesting to see how Egwene and Aviendha stood against each other for their people but still managed to maintain their friendship as well.
     
  8. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    12,609
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Liandrin is da'covale, not so'jihn. She isn't leashed because of her shield - as she cannot channel, it is "safer" for Suroth to keep Liandrin near her (one Darkfriend to another). We meet her again later on, and get some of Suroth's thoughts about the situation.
     
  9. Aduiavas Ida

    Aduiavas Ida Aes Sedai Mistress of Revels - Europe Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    16,429
    Location:
    Drøbak, Norway
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    But Suroth is of the Blood, doesn't that automatically make all her da'covale so'jhin? :scratch
     
  10. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    12,609
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Nope. So'jihn are like... trusted servants, if I recall correctly. Those who have the right to address their Lord/Lady directly, even if they still have to show respect. Da'covale are property and basically have no status whatsoever. That's what Liandrin is. She isn't allowed to refer to herself in the first person, she gets in trouble for lifting her eyes off the floor in Suroth's presence, etc.

    Maybe it's like the difference between a servant and a slave, in very loose terms?
     
  11. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    12,600
    Location:
    Maryland
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Aren't so'jihn the Truth Speakers? They ARE property, but they also have special status and can speak directly to their master/mistress. Their job is to keep their master in check, to speak out when his actions may be wrong. IRCC there was a time when Tuon's so'jihn slapped her for something.

    Someone tell me I'm remembering this correctly. :look
     
  12. Ealandrelle Melyma

    Ealandrelle Melyma Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    12,609
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    A Truth Speaker would be so'jihn (for example, Selucia becomes Tuon's Truth Speaker when Tuon becomes Empress after Semhirage is captured), but not all so'jihn are Truth Speakers. So'jihn are identified as being such (in the case of Selucia et al, they shave the left side of their heads), as they do have station and rank above the likes of da'covale.
     
  13. Leira Galene

    Leira Galene Aes Sedai Head of the Brown Ajah Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    11,529
    Location:
    Kiruna, Sweden
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    I have reached the sexytimes. :giggle

    I wonder why Avi's gateway went to Seanchan, of all places. I guess that was as far away as she could go. Maybe she thought in her head that she wanted to be on the other side of the world right then, which would be Seanchan. So why is it snowing in Seanchan? Are the perhaps in the southern hemisphere portion of it, where it would be winter? (Assuming a round world with an Earth-like axis tilt)
     
  14. Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

    Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak Aes Sedai Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    12,600
    Location:
    Maryland
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    Thanks for the clarification Eala!
     
  15. Wil Cambrae

    Wil Cambrae Sparkle Chief Gaidin

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,572
    Location:
    Chuckville, IL
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    I think Avi was falling into the Luke Skywalker Syndrome....
    She wanted to get to that point furthest from her bright center of the universe
     
  16. Ryu Shadowborn

    Ryu Shadowborn Resident Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,070
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    If it were on the southern hemisphere they would be heading into spring wouldn't they? I am not sure when the "far too long" summer starts and ends.

    TFH: 45

    Mat – Mat is now permanently in charge of the group that he had been leading in the fight, having impressed them enough that they will “Follow him anywhere” and they begin to sing “Jak o the Shadows” and Mat is now stuck back where he was, mired in the pattern even more than before.

    Rand – The hard part of dealing with Cairhien has begun in earnest, all of the nobility thinks that they will be chosen for the throne by the dragon, and begin to maneuver to assure that choice.

    TFH: 46

    Rand enters the city, and takes the Oaths of fealty.

    TFH: 47

    I want to say that Nynaeve and Elayne are being childish not getting along after 3 days of being in the wagon most of the day, however I think if I were stuck with Nynaeve for 3 days without something to keep my mind occupied I might be in a foul mood too.

    And a ship has arrived..and both the Prophet and the Whitecloaks claimed it for themselves, for some completely unknowable reason, that is not at all related to Nynaeve not thinking ahead, the Children and the Dragonsworn getting into a fight over something they both promised to give her was completely unpredictable and not at all, the city is burning to the ground in places.

    Of course Galad and Maesema are to blame in this as well. Everyone is terrible and wrong, all of you are demoted and Uno is now in charge.

    I feel Elayne's frustration here, though wouldn't Birgitte know that Elayne is not lying? Since Warders and Aes Sedai can feel each other's emotions? They would fairly easily know If one or the other were trying to lie?

    TFH: 48

    With all the magic using folks about, it is really easy to forget just how absolutely badass A Blademaster level swordsman really is, a group of rabble against a line of hardened Shienaran soldiers? Of course the Mob will be broken fairly quickly.

    Galad however was out on his own a little, away from the phalanx, and he went without a scratch, not a single club or pitchfork managed to slip through his defenses even when engaged by several targets at once.

    Nynaeve browbeats Neres into helping the refugees, Galad tells her and Elyane to avoid Rand, which he has to know they won't be doing.

    TFH: 49

    I feel bad for Neres here, sure he is breaking the law (but so was Bayle Domon and nobody really gave him crap for it) but losing an entire hold's worth of product is a bit harsh, honestly with the amount of cash they have Nyneave could have just gave him gold or jewels for what he dumped.
    TFH: 50

    Goodbye Uno, I will miss you for the rest of the books you were far too underused after you got dumped off in Salidar, and screw the Aes Sedai for not at least telling Nynaeve and Elayne good job, they did good over the past few books considering how little they had in terms of resources.

    TFH: 51

    I like that Rand fully respects Berelain's political skills, and trusts her enough to put her in charge and not stab him in the back. He also gets a pair of letters from the tower, one from Elaida and one from Alviarin, I am sure these help Rand decide that Aes Sedai are trushworthy and should be let within a hundred billion miles of him.
     
  17. Rhed al'Tere

    Rhed al'Tere Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    May 4, 2002
    Messages:
    13,180
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 38-44

    There could be an equal and opposite far too long winter in Seanchan.

    Chapter 36

    • It's funny that Elayne becomes set on becoming Green because she wants more than one Warder. As if custom can't be changed.
    • Underestimation happens again -- this time, Luca underestimates Birgitte.
    Chapter 37

    • Birgitte: "You are a woman. Why not be proud of it?" :joy
    • Birgitte finally stops Nynaeve apologizing.
    • Nynaeve is so determined to take the blame.
    • Birgitte: "I take people as they are, not as I would like them to be, or else I leave them."
    • Birgitte: "I cannot -- will not -- leave Elayne. That bond honors me, and I will honor it, and her."
    • Birgitte tries to turn what Nynave is doing around. Birgitte feels less, feels humiliated, by the way Nynaeve treats her, so she humiliates Nynaeve in turn.
    • Uuuuuuuuunnnnnnnooooooooo! (This is really what I said in my head when he showed up.)
    Chapter 38

    • What does Masema have against Aes Sedai? Shienarans are generally OK with Aes Sedai.
    • Uno is so adorable, trying to curb his cursing for Nynaeve. ^^
    Chapter 39

    • Nynaeve is shocked that men would braid their hair.
    • Masema thinks the Tower will try to control Rand. Smart. (This may be what he has against Aes Sedai.)
    • "Soft men did not survive along the Blight, nor soft women either." -- Does Nynaeve count herself among those not-soft women? Do you think she's preparing to, given that she wants to be with Lan? She'll have to be not-soft to marry Lan and be a proper partner to him. (I think she proves herself worthy of him and of being called a Borderlander.)
    • Masema preaches of an afterlife -- the "hereafter".
    • It's not good enough for Masema that people walk in the Light; they have to also declare the Dragon the Light.
    • Alliandre is doing what she can to keep Masema from destroying Ghealdon.
    • And of course, Galad.
     
  18. Kassina Tendar

    Kassina Tendar Aes Sedai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    11,061
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 45-49

    I've kept up with the readings... and will try to not get this behind on notes again soon. :look

    Chapter 31:

    -Aviendha freaks out and, rather than simply running out the door, instinctively opens a gateway to the other side of the world. :blink :blink
    -"Keep your mind out of the pigsty." is the Wheel of Time equivalent for "Keep your mind out of the gutter."
    -When talking about Two Rivers marriage customs, Rand mentions 'walking out for a year'. What does that phrase mean? :scratch What do you walk out of for a year?

    Chapter 32:
    -Rand compares Saidin to 'liquid ice'. Isn't that just cold water? :look
    -Do damane always have to stand in the snow without a cloak or is this sul'dam just mean?
    -Rand doesn't understand (as most people don't) that sul'dam can channel as well. So, when he realizes that the sul'dam can channel, he assumes she must have somehow slipped through the net and is knowingly hiding her ability to channel.
    -Seanchan aren't allowed to talk about the corenne at all.
    -Rand is told that men who can channel can find great honor in the use of their power in Seanchan. :arch Playing off his ignorance.
    -Rand starts his obsession with becoming 'hard'.
    -I love the Maidens' reaction when they realize Aviendha and Rand are having sex. :rofl

    Chapter 33:
    -Nynaeve doesn't understand why Elayne wasn't happy when Nynaeve complimented her on 'coming to her senses' :rolleyes
    -Nynaeve smiles at Juilin and he backs up warily :lol
    -Nynaeve tells Elayne what happened with her and Latelle.... and then feels like she has to cut off Elayne finding out the 'real' story by warning her that Latelle will probably try to spread her own version of events. And, in nearly the next sentence, thinks how much better she feels now for being honest. :rolleyes
    -Elayne notes that the a'dam would probably work just as well without the leash connecting the bracelet and collar, just like with the male a'dam.
    -Nynaeve can't comprehend Elayne's excitement at being able to figure out ter'angreal and possibly make them herself.

    Chapter 34:
    -Nynaeve notes that Valan Luca never eats with them on the nights it's her turn to cook... but doesn't make the connection. :p
    -Elayne mentions that Egwene doesn't want the Wise Ones to know about their trips to the Tower in tel'aran'rhiod and that she's always quick to silence Elayne/Nynaeve if they try to bring it up in front of the Wise Ones... but doesn't make the connection that it's because she's hiding it from them. :arch

    Chapter 35:
    -Yea! Birgitte! :D Especially with the frustration of the Nynaeve/Elayne feud, it's nice to have Birgitte now to add some more awesome to their chapters. :)

    Chapter 36:
    -Elayne thinks that of course she has to choose the Green Ajah now because she's bonded Birgitte and plans to bond Rand. It's odd how set in stone the Ajahs seem in the books. Green is absolutely the only Ajah that ever bonds more than one Warder. Likewise, Reds absolutely 100% never bond Warders. I mean, Elayne does think at other times how she wants to be Green because of it being the 'battle Ajah', but bonding customs seems like such a weird way to choose your Ajah. I mean, I realize that custom can be nearly as confining as an actual rule, especially in an organization like the Tower which is very structured and built on a lot of ceremonies and customs... but it just seems weird. And I realize Elayne doesn't know how Tower hierarchy works, but given how strong Elayne is in the Power, she'll pretty much be able to do what she wants when she's raised. :p If she wants to break custom when it comes to Warders, no one's really going to be able to stop her.
    -Elayne finally tells Thom and Juilin what's going on. They really do deserve to know. While Elayne can be a bit annoying at times, I do generally really like her and, especially in the interactions with Nynaeve, she usually is the more reasonable one.
    -Some Aes Sedai make their Warders swear oaths when they bond them.

    Chapter 37:
    -Nynaeve's mad at Thom that he gets to wear his own coat?? :scratch
    -Elayne is a really fast learner. :blink I realize she's had time to practice while they were with the menagerie, but that's really impressive that she's now able to do her act without a platform of Air.

    Chapter 38:
    -Why are there so many menageries around this one town? We hadn't seen any menageries before now and suddenly there are a ton all clustered around one town. If this is representative of their distribution across similar-sized towns, why haven't we seen any before now? Or is Samara just obsessed with menageries?
    -Do people in Wheel of Time not have black hair? Nynaeve's hair is dyed black and she thinks of it as 'a shade that nature never made"
    -I love Uno trying to literally only swear every other sentence. :rofl
    -Sleight-of-hand can be taken as Channeling by people riled up by the prophet. :blink

    Chapter 39:
    -Nynaeve is shocked that men would have braided hair. :lol She sees Arafellins and compares their attitude to Uno's. Makes sense since they're Borderlanders, too.
    -Nynaeve thinks that 'for the first time in her life' she regretted speaking her mind without thinking first. (in front of Masema)
    -I have a terrible memory apparently. How did Rand save Nynaeve at Falme?
    -Masema's theology parallels the Bible in places. For example: "Blessed are you among women, Nynaeve al'Meara, none more so save the blessed mother of the Lord Dragon herself, for you have watched the Lord Dragon grow."

    Chapter 40:
    -Nynaeve finally remembers the name Salidar!
    -Nynaeve acts in the moment and doesn't fully think things through... "We should be out of here in a day or two, with luck. If Galad doesn't find us a boat, Masema will." :facepalm
    -I like Elayne asking if the King of Gealdan was in the meeting with the Prophet and Nynaeve being like "Actually...." :lol

    Chapter 41:
    -Rand asks Egwene to channel offensively during the battle since she hasn't taken the Three Oaths. Egwene apparently went white-faced when he asked. Understandably, since she's been trying to live by the Three Oaths and the ideals behind the oaths are rather ingrained in Tower training. Not to mention, if the Wise Ones find out what's going on, they could find out she's not Aes Sedai. Although, I'm not sure how much the Wise Ones know about Aes Sedai and whether they know about the Oaths and what they are.
    -Thom killing King Galldrian led to a civil war... oops. :p

    Chapter 42:
    -Mat admits to being ta'veren. (at least in his own head he does-he hasn't said it out loud) Still, he historically hasn't even been willing to admit to himself that he's ta'veren.
    -When Birgitte mentions 'miners and siege engines'... what are 'miners' in this context? :scratch Rand's confused, too.
    -Mat notes that he doesn't feel the tug of Rand's ta'verenness as he plans to leave. Unfortunately for Mat, that's 'cause he's going right where the Pattern needs him. :p
    -Jak o' the Shadows starts when Mat unconsciously starts whistling it when returning to his tent after visiting Rand.

    Chapter 43:
    -Lan: "Give over, or we will stand here all day while you argue and they chant at you." :rofl
    -Mat thinks that the day had begun so well... and then his ta'verenness took over.
    -While leaving Mat's tent, Melindhra seems to be arguing with herself and says "Far Dareis Mai above all". Is she perhaps debating between joining the Maidens in chanting at Rand and doing some Darkfriend stuff?
    -Mat's day then devolves into a series of "I'll just ___ and then leave. That's all."
    -Talmanes! :D
    -Talmanes seems to trust him pretty instantly. He apparently doesn't even ask who Mat is.
    -Mat thinks that 'maybe if it rained, the Aiel would give up and go home' :lol Mat should know better by now. He's been traveling with Aiel for long enough.
    -The Mat and Talmanes partnership starts off with both of them leading charges down opposite slopes.

    Chapter 44:
    -Rand thinks that it'd be nice to have someone to trade Channeling with like Aviendha and Egwene are doing, but that he doesn't trust Asmodean enough for it. I'd think the more important reason that he can't do that is because then Asmodean would be seen Channeling! I mean, maybe no one else would see, but Egwene and Aviendha would probably figure out fast enough that Rand wasn't the only one Channeling.
    -Rand feels saidin in the bolts of lightning Sammael sends down and thinks it's Asmodean. Though I'd think the shield Lanfear put on Asmodean would prevent him from doing anything that big.
    -Aiel are able to tell who's on their side at a glance, but Mat can't. Are there subtle differences in cadin'sor that allow the Aiel to tell apart different societies and clans at a glance?
    -Mat's luck is ridiculous when it comes to battle. A bunch of Aiel plowed into the back of the Shaido they were fighting, saving them just when they needed it... and other such 'coincidences'.
    -Talmanes is very impressed with Mat.
    -Mat thinks that lords are especially touchy about being made a fool of because they so often manage it on their own. :lol
    -Is this the first time we see the dice rolling in Mat's head during a battle?
    -Rand is really delirious after the battle and keeps mixing up old memories of Lews Therin with his own.
    -Asmodean tries to Heal Rand.

    Chapter 45:
    -We see Aiel dancing! And Tairens and Cairhienins with broken bones from attempting it. :p
    -The newly formed Band of the Red Hand tries to teach Aiel Jak o' the Shadows. They even invent their own verse.
    -Does the foxhead medallion protect Mat from saidin? Do we ever find out?
    -Rand starts to think of his memories as coming from Lews Therin himself rather than simply memories of a past life. He's worried about Lews Therin taking control.
    -I love Aiel humor sometimes. :lol Aviendha teasing Egwene over getting in trouble with the Wise Ones when they pulled her out of her tent for the meeting.
    -Rand wants Sammael to pay for every Maiden he killed. What about all the non-Maidens he killed?
    -Asmodean's gotten good at making veiled comments to the other Forsaken. He tells Rand that he thinks the Tairen lords are as dangerous in their own way as the Forsaken.

    Chapter 46:
    -The start of the siswai'aman
    -Rand is starting to feel protective of Moiraine. He doesn't know what's in the wagons that Moiraine's so concerned with, but his orders to let Kadere leave if he wants make sure to protect Moiraine's ter'angreal.
    -He then expects and even wants Moiraine to accompany him to Cairhien. And of course this happens right before we lose Moiraine for a few books. :(
     
  19. Murun

    Murun

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 45-49

    But he isn't ignorant (as he should be, not that he would find the offer tempting). Who told him that the Seanchan killed men who could channel as soon as they found them?

    Just envy - she must wear a dress given to her that she finds scandalous.

    In this context, it probably means digging a tunnel under the wall and sending a commando group through to overwhelm the guards and open the gate for the enemy.
    The tactic became much more widespread with the use of gunpowder; it had its great day in WW I, when both sides used it in the attempt to break the stalemate by creating an opening in the enemy's defenses. The British definitely were more adept with that; in 1917, they built a complex tunnel system and killed some 10.000 German soldiers in a blast that is regarded als the biggest non-nuclear one ever. The overall result, however, was disappointing - the Germans retreated some kilometers and dug in again. Some of the tunnels are still shown to tourists in Belgium and France.
    More mobile warfare and the development of air forces made the tactic obsolete (can't remember a single instance from WW II); the fine art of digging tunnels by stealth nowadays has come down to a way to rob banks.

    She is Far Darei Mai (and honor bound to follow Rand), but she is also Shaido, and going to fight against her own clan. Quite a difficult conflict of loyalties, though nothing dark about it.

    Talmanes is no pushover - Mat talks sense, but the final test is "you bet your life on your plan as I bet mine on yours". No way Mat could get out of THIS.

    Yes, there are. Come Dumai's Wells, the maidens will be angry that they have to wear a strip of red on an arm so the Wetlanders know what side they are on. There seem to be lots of subtle "trademark" differences - when Faile and the others were taken, Sulin tells that there were Shaido and people from other clans by the different arrows she found on the spot.

    Yes, it does. We are shown for the first time when Halima channels at him in LoC, and then of course there are the medaillon bearers fighting Demandred in AMoL.

    That's just the chivalry thing - for men, killing and getting killed is part of their life, whereas women should be kept from harm. In evolutionary perspective, this isn't irrational - in pre-modern times, war had something to do with the survival of the fittest (if somewhat loosely), and the remaining men can father plenty of children. The total size of a population however is limited by the number of females of child-bearing age; with every maiden killed, there's a loss of say 4-6 children in the next generation.
    However, there is no doubt that Rand goes to the extreme with that issue, and plausible theories say the reason for that is Lews Therin's influence with his persistent memories of killing his wife and family.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  20. Murun

    Murun

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Fires of Heaven Chapters 45-49

    Chs. 33-36:

    I hate to see Nynaeve distressd, confused, awkward … even though I know she's in for educative experiences, kind of getting an upgrade. But it hurts. The tongue lashing Egwene gave her in chapter 15 has her still unsettled, so she avoids meeting her.
    Being stubborn is usually taken to be a good trait to have in this series – but it also makes you kind of a slow learner. (This holds for all the Emonds Fiedlers except Egwene, who seems to be fairly good at accepting change.) So the Wheel weaves more trouble into Nynaeve's path … just for her own good.
    Thinking about this reminds me of a verse from the Bible - „For those who love God, all things must serve to their benefit“ - substitute „the Light“ and „the Pattern“, and it works like that, well beyond the three ta'veren.

    Spying on the Forsaken was risky – but no more so than going into TAR at all was for Nynaeve (given that Moghedien had the ability to find her), and so, by association, for Birgitte. Would Birgtte have done what she did if Nynaeve had not asked her? Questionable. So the question of responsibility remains open. A military commander who wastes the lives of his soldiers will be held responsible for it – usually by his superiors, but sometimes also his men will make sure it won't happen again. But Nynaeve had no authority over Birgitte, she didn'd command, she just asked … a bit like „let's go for a prank“. On the other hand, „just bad luck“ doesn't cover it either.

    However, in the aftermath we are not really talking about responsibility, we see both women busy coping with the events. And insisting that the outcome resulted from her own choice is central to Birgitte's coping. Whereas what Nynaeve offers is absolutely no use for her – just as it has only quite limited use to Nynaeve. And Birgitte, experienced as she is, sets her straight.

    Moghedien is such a delightful villain – if she had acted more resolutely, things could have turned out much worse. Her meticulous description what she would do to Nynaeve – I'll even braid your mane:lol – gives Birgitte time to recover.

    I was surprised that later on, Moghedien is only questioned about weaves, not about her TAR tricks.

    Taking rsponsibility for one's own choices and letting other people make theirs is perhaps the only issue in the series where I see a moral message pushed at the reader – something I am quite allergic about. OK, taken. And would the spectre of Ayn Rand please piss off? My mental jukebox turns Laurie Anderson on - Big science, hallelujah, every man, every man for himse-e-elf. No, not so big, and not science either. – There will be more of that and I promise I won’t complain again.

    Mere translator's curiosity: Wtf is ferris? Must be some herb, Elayne puts it on her cold soup – does it have a more common name? Like parsley, mint, dill?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015