2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn

Kassina Tendar

Aes Sedai
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
11,584
Age
35
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

  • I don't understand how Suian can fault them for "being winkled out" of the Tower. Is she looking back -- hindsight being 20/20? This is so frustrating to me. They're taught to ask how high when an Aes Sedai says jump, and obey all commands immediately, and yet they're punished for obeying commands from an Aes Sedai!! It's...it's...hypocritical, a bit, to tell Novices to question Aes Sedai when they'll be punished for it in any circumstance that doesn't involve known Black Ajah! :tug :mad
Exactly! :facepalm Under any other circumstances, Novices would certainly be punished for not obeying an Aes Sedai. It just so happens that Liandrin was Black Ajah... but that's hardly their fault. I was hoping Siuan would say something to that effect when Leane left... but no such luck. :\

Chapter 16:
-Egwene swoons over Galad and finds out that Gawyn likes her. Knowing what's going to happen, it'll be interesting to see if we see more hints of Egwene and Gawyn before they're suddenly open about it.-Nynaeve is so mistrustful! "I am not sure we can trust the Amyrlin much further than the Black Ajah. She means to use us for her own ends."Yes, the second part of that sentence is true, but that doesn't mean she's as bad as the Black Ajah! :facepalm

Chapter 17:
Nynaeve and Egwene think they can go heal Mat on their own. :facepalm :rolleyes Just because you have a lot of raw power doesn't mean you have the skill to heal a papercut let alone Mat's connection with the Shadar Logoth dagger. :brown-blink: They do realize how foolish they were later when they watch Mat's healing, but I was still rolling my eyes when they were about to go off and try healing Mat themselves.-It's weird seeing Elaida and Sheriam face off with Sheriam 'saving' the girls from Elaida. Between the two, Elaidai seems much more likely to be Black Ajah, but no matter how much you end up hating her later, she never turns out to be Black Ajah.-"If the Black Ajah doesn't catch us, Sheriam will. [...] If Sheriam isn't Black Ajah herself.

Chapter 18:
-Egwene just flat-out saying "I was thinking about the Black Ajah" in front of Sheriam... even if you think you can trust Sheriam, you really need to learn to be more discreet.-Egwene on seeing Mat's Healing: "What chance would we hae had? We'd probably have killed ourselves, too. Light!" Yes, thank you. :facepalm-Egwene feels like she should be able to understand the Old Tongue that Mat was shouting while he was being Healed. Why?

Chapter 19:
-"Discovering what Rand could do had been like finding out his best friend tortured small animals and killed babies. Once you finally made yourself believe it, it was hard to call him a friend any longer."
I usually like Mat, but I don't like how he deals with Rand's growing ability to channel. :\ It's not at all similar to finding out your friend tortures animals! :brown-blink: Rand didn't choose to be able to channel. This is not something he's doing intentionally. He may be the reincarnation of someone who went mad and killed a lot of people, but Rand's a victim here more than anything.

Chapter 20:
-Mat thinks Selene reminds him of someone: "a woman dressed as one nobly born, a Darkfriend with a deadly dagger in her slender hand."
Who is it he's remembering? Is it Selene?

Chapter 21:
-Egwene briefly speculates about what if Verin is Black Ajah, then immediately dismisses the idea. "She refused to believe this plump scholar could be a Darkfriend."

Chapter 22:
-Egwene mentions to Sheriam about turning channelers to the Shadow during her Accepted test. It's amazing how often people are talking to Sheriam about darkfriends and the Black Ajah. It's also interesting that Sheriam then actually does explain to Egwene about how channelers can be turned. :brown-blink: She also tells Egwene that there are no more Dreadlords today. But there sure are a ton of Black Ajah.And then of course Egwene can't help saying aloud "Thirteen. The same number who left the Tower. Liandrin, and twelve more." :rolleyes She really needs to learn to keep quiet about these things.
-Egwene is Amyrlin in her Accepted test. There's also a big purge of Aes Sedai in her 'future' part of the test. Elaida is also her biggest enemy even in the test. Interesting considering how they end up leading opposing Towers as Amyrlins. Although, in her vision, Elaida is actually Black Ajah.

All that really makes me wonder about the nature of the arches. Are they actually visions of other worlds? If so, are alternate Egwenes and Nynaeves and other novices constantly disappearing from those worlds during Accepted tests? :laugh: I always figured, like Sheriam, that the things they see aren't real, but it is interesting to think about. I mean, there are things that happen in the worlds (like channelers being turned or balefire) that Egwene didn't know about before entering the arches, so it can't all have come from Egwene's brain. It also isn't presented as if the Aes Sedai channeling into the arches are consciously creating the worlds either like in the test for Aes Sedai. So where do the worlds come from if they're not real and not solely from either Egwene or the Aes Sedai channeling? They do seem to be rather realistic depictions of the people in the test. Egwene really does become Amyrlin and, just like in her vision, she manages to do it without saying the three oaths.

-Wow, Elaida's so blunt and just... rude to Egwene after her test. :brown-blink: Flat-out saying that she doesn't like her because she's a wilder.

-After Egwene finishes her test and Alanna is describing the Green Ajah to her, it just struck me how stereotypical all the Ajahs are portrayed sometimes. The first thing Alanna says is that a Green sister must love men, just like a Red sister must hate men. Just like a Blue sister only likes men who share her causes and White sisters are all logic and no passion. It reminds me of some of the discussion earlier about Taren Ferry people living up to their stereotypes. The Ajahs are all very stereotypical and the Aes Sedai in them tend to live up to the stereotypes.

-Why does Alanna want to watch Egwene?
 

Rhed al'Tere

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
14,053
Location
Durham, NC
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Chapter 15
  • As has been pointed out, the third oath allows for defending yourself to save your life. I thought they knew the full wording of the oaths by now, and wouldn't have to have this conversation.
  • Nynaeve has super quick thinking & action, pushing Egwene to the floor.
  • I think Nynaeve suspects Sheriam. Why doesn't Egwene? She trusts her even to the point of making her her Keeper!
Chapter 16
  • How/When did Egwene switch from interest in Galad to interest in Gawyn?
Chapter 17
  • There's a lot of talk to Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne (ENE) about their strength. But in New Spring, we saw that speaking of strength was not done. It made the Blue Head sick to her stomach to speak of it. Why is everyone so open with ENE about their strength, then?
  • Did Elaida actually threaten stilling? She said that Elayne might lose the chance to be the strongest Aes Sedai, and an Aes Sedai queen...does that equate stilling? Would Elaida actually do that? (Well. Yes she would, if she thought it was the way to save the world or something.)
  • Did Sheriam actually go to Siuan about the Grey Man?
Chapter 18
  • Nynaeve realizes how strong she actually is.
  • Kassina: I think Egwene almost understands the OT because of the Manetheren blood in her. It happened in book 1 as well, with all the Two Rivers folk.

I'm not done with 19 yet, but Kassina, I agree with you about Mat comparing Rand to a pre-serial killer. Though you (I/psychologist people) could argue that people who torture animals may not have a choice in that either -- they may be born that way. :cheeseeni: /devil's advocate :P


And in 20, I think Mat's vaguely remembering the lady who tried to kill him and Rand in the barn. Book 1? When they're going to Caemlyn.
 

Rhed al'Tere

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
14,053
Location
Durham, NC
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Chapter 19
  • In Mat's memory: "He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice." I may have sort of cheered when I saw this.
  • Mat doesn't realize he's tied to the Horn.
Chapter 20
  • Was Lanfear going to use Compulsion on Mat?
  • It's interesting that Mat gets his strategic thinking from his dad -- or at least knowing how to be a strategic thinker, and look at something from all sides. Here we see him doing it deliberately, but eventually -- perhaps thanks to the memories he gains -- it becomes second nature, especially in battles where it's critical.
Chapter 21
  • The flash of white that Egwene sees -- is it actually a servant or novice? Or Lanfear? Or am I jumping at shadows now? :laugh:
  • Verin's office sounds a lot like Jordan's.
  • Did Verin officially (as a Black Ajah member) know any of the Black sisters who fled the Tower?
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
355
Age
37
Location
Texas
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

I'm hovering around chapter 9, here's some things I've been thinking the most about.

Prologue:
I don't particularly care for Pedron Niall, but he seems to have something of a head on his shoulders. You know, aside from the whole religious zealotry stuff. That crafty Padan Fain weasels his way into the good graces of too many intelligent characters. :cheeseeni:

Chapter 6:
So Rand runs off to go get Callandor because he's attempting to keep himself from killing anyone else who gets close to him. Aside from this being incredibly foolish, is this the reason he tells himself, or is this mostly because the pattern is pulling him in that direction? He's so concerned about the short term deaths, he's not thinking about the big picture and how many people will die if he's foolishly killed in the interim before the LB. And yet when Lan says "You're a Man" he says that he will do what he must to save people. I find him utterly confusing so far.

Chapter 8:
I was so happy when Perrin finally decided to just stop withdrawing into himself and stands up to Moirane. He's echoing the frustration of the audience on this one, traveling with a woman who claims to know it all and yet has tapered her mouth shut. What is the harm in folks understanding the situation they find themselves within?

Its strange because Moiraine understands that not only is Rand more powerfully Ta'veren than any other person in history, but that Mat and Perrin are also extremely strong Ta'veren...and yet it seems like she's willing to keep them in the dark about so much. She FINALLY has a chat in chapter 9 with Perrin about his being Wolfbrother. I know she has wisdom, and is doing the best she can, but she's being swept up in their pull as well. Its like she's probing in the dark attempting to use incomplete/not wholly understood info/wisdom/prophecy to guide those whose paths are probably re-arranging her own! I'm cross eyed thinking about it lol.

Its funny, she seems to think her guidance is tantamount when she and Siuan where the ones who understood he needed to be let off the leash or he would rile against them. Or at least give him this illusion. What do you all think?

Don't get me wrong, I love Moiraine..but I'm starting to think there may be some serious validity to everyone complaining about Tar Valon strings.

General Thoughts:
* Love knowing the exact meanings behind Min's viewings also Kassina Sedai! It made me smile :)

* It makes sense that dark friends try to kill Rand as he doesn't have any kind of mastery over Saidin. He's incredibly dangerous of course but still I'd argue more vulnerable now that at any other time in the story aside from the beginning. Tho the darkfriends should probably still be attempting to kill Mat and Perrin. But since Rand is the one prophesized to fight the DO, and the history Lews Therin has with so many of the forsaken, its somewhat pride that keeps them focused on killing him (besting him) and partially let's try to get him to turn to the DO too! Cuz really, thats what the DO wants. Its sort of like Darth Vadar trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side cuz he's really powerful, what a fantastic addition to the DO's arsenal! (In response to Toral Gaidin)

* Why does Masema go into full obsession over Rand/TDR? Is it simply the effect of Ta'veren on him? Is it because of his borderlander passion, something inherent in Masema's personality? Why is he a nutjob or as Mother puts it
What flipped the switch in Masema, from hating Rand to revering him? Then again, what flips the switch in anyone to zealotry?


I'm ready for some more! Will get caught up soon enough :D I'm on a roll!
 
Last edited:

Aduiavas Ida

Aes Sedai
Head of the White Ajah
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
20,134
Age
34
Location
Drøbak, Norway
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

I am actually thinking either Compulsion from a Forsaken or Padan Fain when it comes to Masema actually.. When we meet him again he mentions seeing visions of Rand clad in Light giving him orders...
 

Rhed al'Tere

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
14,053
Location
Durham, NC
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Oh, that's interesting...

He may also just be mad. Or lying. Always possibilities.
 

Imzadi Hopewind

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
9,052
Location
Oslo, Norway
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Chapter 25

how many of Egwene's dream came true?

is Novice Else of Black Ajah? Or is she Lanfear in disguse?

chapter 26

did the black Ajah put the stuff in the storeroom?
 
Last edited:

Toral Delvar

Gaidin
Archivist
Joined
Oct 28, 2002
Messages
5,629
Location
Ann Arbor, MI, US
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Is Else being sent home an inconsistency? She was a Novice, so must have the ability to learn, but we later see from many people (such as Alise, who was resentful), that no matter how slow you are to learn, they don't send you away until they are sure you have learned enough of using the Power that you won't be a danger.
 

Wil Cambrae

Loremaster Wil
Gaidin
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
5,974
Location
Chuckville, IL
Pronouns
  1. He - Him
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Suian did say she had been sent home a while back, and that she hadn't sent her. I've been assuming that when we see Else in the Tower she's Lanfear in disguise. Based on when we've seen Lanfear shortly after or before.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
16,243
Age
46
Location
Tennessee
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Discord
Maibella#7994
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Hmm, the "Aes Sedai" who Egwene ran into after fake Else ran away after delivering the message to the girls ... was that Lanfear or Mesaana? (Mesaana was the one hiding out in the Tower later, right?) The tone of voice and imperiousness definitely didn't feel like Lanfear to me.
 

Rhed al'Tere

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
14,053
Location
Durham, NC
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

That was Lanfear. First, the chapter picture is Lanfear's symbol; second, she was in silver and white; third, she was beautiful and had the same effect on Egwene that she had on Rand, or Hurin (sort of the same; instead of feeling all protectorly and sexually attracted, Egwene felt less and not pretty etc); fourth, she was annoyed or angry when Egwene called her Aes Sedai, which we've seen from Lanfear before.


Chapter 22
  • If the dream ter'angreal is so heavy, ho does no one notice the drag in Egwene's pouch? [Resolved: It doesn't sound like she carries it all the time.]
  • The information in the arches is not solely drawn from the person who enters.
  • Egwene outs Rand as a channeler to Sheriam (and maybe Elaida).
  • Was Egwene's Black Ajah purge called the Great Purge?
  • It's funny how predictions weave in to Egwene's last arch: Egwene as Amyrlin; a coup in the Tower; Elaida as Amyrlin; Egwene never held the Oath Rod. Also some untrue things, though (Elaida isn't Black Ajah).
  • "The Black Ajah waits." This helps draw Egwene out of the arch, and it also becomes part of her legacy as Amyrlin.
Chapter 23
  • Elayne, of her testing: "I could not be that awful."
Chapter 24
  • Else/Lanfear address Mat as Lanfear: "What are you doing up and about?" :giggle
  • Why did she insist he stand so far away for her to pass? Does Illusion not work well if people know you, or are close to you?
  • Galad: "I do have a sense of humor, Gawyn." :laugh:
  • The G's are so condescending to Mat. They think they're so good with swords, they can't even contemplate anyone beating them with a nonsword.
  • I love this fight scene.
  • Is this the beginning of Mat's luck? He thought it was time to toss the dice -- and we first saw this phrase in Chapter 19, in Mat's memory.
Chapter 25
  • Egwene is convinced that her nightmares about the Seanchan forcing Aes Sedai to attack the White Tower, and of her father bound by the Whitecloaks, are just nightmares. But... I can't remember, did the Whitecloaks go after Bran?
  • The Black Ajah women who left had no pattern. Elayne: "I think it means there is a pattern of some kind." What pattern?
  • They took ter'angreal for Dreaming, balrefire, and luck.
  • The Wondergirls fell for Else? Really? Why would the Amyrlin use Else, Nynaeve? :rolleyes

Imzadi: Else was actually Lanfear. The storeroom was a trap, and I think the Black Ajah (as directed by either Lanfear or Mesaana) did put the stuff there.

Which means that the Wondergirls are not as under cover as they or the Amyrlin thought.
 

Ealandrelle Melyma

Aes Sedai
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
12,610
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

But... I can't remember, did the Whitecloaks go after Bran?

Yes, insofar as they "take over" the Two Rivers. I don't remember Bran being physically bound at any point, but he is metaphorically bound in that his authority/influence are severely curtailed by the "need" to have the Whitecloaks around to prevent Trolloc attacks.
 

Imzadi Hopewind

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
9,052
Location
Oslo, Norway
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Perhaps he's a symbol of Two Rivers? So if Two Rivers is taken by Whitecloaks, then it's Bran that are taken, since he's the mayor?
 

Ryu Shadowborn

Resident Citizen
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
1,164
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

TDR: 23

So does Elaida think that when a woman stops learning from the tower they just..never channel again? Sure the Tower will come down hard on any woman who claims to be Aes Sedai, or anyone trying to set up a competing group, but if Nyneave were to have stayed a novice and learned the mechanics of channeling, do they think she would just not use the power to heal? The Phrase Fat Chance comes to mind with me.

This especially comes to mind say in the Aiel War, what if there were a woman tossed out before becoming accepted that settled in Cairehen, and then continued to train herself in the power, what would they do with a wife who was defending her children against rampaging Aiel by using the power?

Oh Alanna, you had so much potential. It is odd, Arafelens have a sense of “honor” but Alanna does what is more or less considered by Aes Sedai as rape to Rand later on, which of course totally helps him to trust the White Tower!

TDR: 24

I love this fight here, it totally sets Mat up as an absolute badass, I do wish it were against some one other than Galad. Dude takes a bit too much crap early on in the series. Most of it for no reason, sure he ends up in the White Cloaks, but I blame Suian and Elyane for that one, and for Gawyn's slide into utter stupidity later on, Gawyn's utter, utter, never learning, raging stupidity. *SNIFF*

TDR: 25

Okay, just what the heck is Lanfear's game here? She sends The Ladies to Tear which does what for her schemes in the end? Aside from causing the Black's trouble and costing them the ability to take the dragon reborn? 13 Female Channelers not pre-occupied with dealing with the 3 Accepted that showed up? I wonder what use they could have been.

Man the Forces of the Dark defeat themselves half a dozen times don't they?

TDR: 26

This is totally not a trap. AT ALL, though..Why would they set this trap up, it makes no sense really. The Dragon has to come for Callandor eventually so why not keep the Sisters Secret and surprise him when he comes for the sword that he has to wield.

TDR: 27

Our first full and real visit to Tel'aran'rhiod, Perrin and Egwene have been there before, but this time She knows what she is doing, and purposefully going in there to explore, and Lanfear pushes Egwene into going to The Stone of Tear. Does Lanfear know about the Flaw in Callandor? It would make sense for her to want him to use the Sword that is not a Sword if she knows it has a Flaw in it.

TDR: 28

Nothing much here, The Girls set Mat on his path to the Stone, which leads him to the Stone Door, and ultimately to follow Rand into the Three Fold Land.
TDR: 29

I love this Scene, just the idea of Suian glaring people into staying away. For all the things I think Suian did wrong as The Amyrlin Seat, she had a big presence
 

Imzadi Hopewind

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
9,052
Location
Oslo, Norway
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

I like chapter 30, because it show the first sign of Mat's luck, both in games and fights... :D
 

Toral Delvar

Gaidin
Archivist
Joined
Oct 28, 2002
Messages
5,629
Location
Ann Arbor, MI, US
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 30-36

The Luhhans are captured/arrested, but not Bran. It could be symbolic, RJ might have changed his mind, or it might have just been a bad dream that coincidentally sort of came true
 

Rhed al'Tere

Aes Sedai
Joined
May 4, 2002
Messages
14,053
Location
Durham, NC
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 30-36

Chapters 26 & 27

(I forgot my notebook at lunch and didn't take specific notes, but here are my reflections.)

Again: The girls are idiots for believing the Amyrlin would send Else. Sigh.

They're also idiots for believing that the Amyrlin has cut them loose and isn't keeping an eye on them. :rolleyes

Silviana turns out to be Lanfear, right? Or Moggy? It's interesting that Silviana thinks that Egwene knows what she's doing.
 

Kassina Tendar

Aes Sedai
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
11,584
Age
35
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Pronouns
  1. She - Her
Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 30-36

Chapter 24:
-Loved the fight scene with Mat vs. Galad/Gawyn!

Chapter 25:
-Egwene dismisses some of her dreams as just nightmares, particularly a dream of Mat and the Seanchan.
Elayne said:
So there's Verin to suspect. If she is Black Ajah, then they know exactly what we are doing.
Well... not necessarily. :p
Elayne said:
I have never been able to like Elaida, but I cannot truly believe she is Black Ajah. And Sheriam? It's impossible.
Nynaeve astutely reminds her that it should be impossible for any of them to be Black Ajah. You shouldn't rule anyone out.

Chapter 26:
-Egwene thinks "Light, I am starting to see the Black Ajah under my bed. Only, maybe they are under the bed."Ok
Ok, that made me laugh. :laugh: I like imagining that there are literally Black Ajah members hiding under Egwene's bed. :p
-And yeah, I'm not sure why the Black Ajah set that 'trap' and tried to lure them to Tear. :cheeseeni: I can't see how that would benefit them. It would only make sense if they either wanted to get the three of them out of the Tower for some reason or if they were hoping to take the three of them out when they go to Tera (since they'd be out of the relative safety of the Tower)

Chapter 27:
-Egwene jumping around Tel'aran'rhiod. It's really quite dangerous going into other people's dreams like that.

Chapter 28:
-Siuan helps the three of them out in their journey to Tear. She agrees to it quite readily, though maybe she had already expected they were going to leave and figured there was no point in opposing them.

Chapter 29:
Siuan said:
Sheriam found another Gray Man. A woman. Dead as last week's fish, and not a mark on her. She was laid out as if resting, right in the middle of Sheriam's bed. Not very pleasant for Sheriam.
Why was the Gray Man in Sheriam's bed? :scratch
Though it really should seem weird to Nynaeve (considering her earlier suspicions of Sheriam after the first Gray Man incident) that this Gray Man also had dealings with Sheriam.
 
Top