2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn

Toral Delvar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 2-8

I've already added some of the stuff that has come up in the re-read (though much, perhaps most was already in there)
 

Rhed al'Tere

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Prologue

  • Byar and Masema are very alike.
  • Pedron Niall has a plan soldier's office -- says a lot about him that he doesn't surround himself with gold & fancy things.
  • Niall accuses Byar of having no imagination but he himself can't think beyond Aes Sedai using the Power -- no one else would or could, accoridng to him.
  • Wil's right. Niall is kind of a badass.
  • Though he is foolish to think he could unite the world.
Chapter 1
  • Rand's "cords" in the last book -- are these the bonds between him, Perrin, and Mat?
  • How do the women know where to go to find Moiraine? What's leading them?
  • Tinker Leya: "It is possible to oppose evil without doing violence."
  • Is this true? You may be able to oppose it, but evil would win if no one fought it. If you only ever turn from evil, or allow it to kill you, then what are you doing to oppose it? Rather than take up a sword yourself, you're merely ensuring that someone else does, to protect themselves and you.
Chapter 2
  • Leya may have misconception that Ogier are strictly peaceful. Or perhaps she knows their preference for staying out of human affairs.
  • Poor Min: "All the happy things seem to have gone away."
  • Perrin: "Ogier are enemies to no one." Ha.
  • Perrin has learned to guard his dreams.
Chapter 3
  • Perrin: "We are tied together, it seems, aren't we, Rand?"
  • Moiraine has strong Talent for Healing.
Chapter 4
  • Who was the male Forsaken in Perrin's dream?
Chapter 5
  • When Perrin gives over to the wolf, the Myrdraal sees it. Almost a physical change in Perrin.
  • Leya attacked the Myrdraal. Why?
  • Perrin: "Wolves knew each other even if they had never met before, and with them he was just another wolf."
  • Rand can feel Trollocs. Side effect of channeling in general?
  • Lan, to Perrin: "barely even a scar" -- Healing doesn't leave scars. Remember how shocked Sheriam was that Nynaeve's hands scarred after her Accepted test?
  • Rand is sooooo emo here! Understandably so, but still annoying. :tug
 

Kassina Tendar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Prologue:
-How did the association between Darkfriends and supporters of the Dragon come about? :scratch I realize he went mad (as did all male Aes Sedai), but that still seems incredible that public opinion would change so much to believe that only the Dragon is a darkfriend, but so is everyone who supports him. :brown-blink: The prophecies very clearly say that the Dragon will fight the Shadow.
-It's interesting that the Sea Folk won't cross the Aryth Ocean. I wonder why. Although I suppose it's good 'cause the Seanchan wouldn't take too well to their Windfinders.
-I agree that Niall's a cool character. He's frustratingly wrong about a lot of things, but he really is trying to do what he thinks is best, although he is focusing a bit too much on his own glory as well as the defeat of the Shadow.
-"In the old tongue, Ordeith meant 'wormwood'." No wonder I always associated Fain in the role of Ordeith with Wormtongue. :facepalm
-How does Niall know about Perrin and Mat? I suppose all the Whitecloaks probably know about Perrin by now... but Mat?

Chapter 4:
-In Perrin's dream, he remembers carrying the axe "a thousand times, in a hundred battles"
Is he remembering past lives? Does he have the axe in all his lives then? :scratch
-Do we know who the man in black is in Perrin's dream? Perrin says he remembers him from long ago.

Chapter 6:
Ishamael comes for boys who do not tell their mothers the truth. Lanfear waits in the night for boys who do not go to bed when they are supposed to.
:eek Yikes. Those are scary stories to tell your children!
-I love how surprised Lan is that everyone knows about him and Nynaeve. :rofl
-It's really cool knowing what the prophecies and Min's viewings mean this time around. :)
-What was with Min's advice for Perrin to run when he sees a beautiful woman? :brown-blink: Who's that supposed to be? Lanfear?

Chapter 7:
-Moiraine fishing with Loial and Perrin :rofl

Chapter 8:
-It's smart to have Lan reply for Moiraine when people in Jarra talk to them. He can lie.-There were times (but only times) when Hawkwing had incredible luck with dice as well.
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Ch. 6: Why does Moiraine send Min to Tar Valon? To have her "out of her hair"? There is nothing she could tell the Amyrlin that was not known there already from Verin and the girls. One would always distrust Moiraine's motives, and Loial is here just being polite.

Originally, Perrin says to Min "I never had a sister", which has now been changed to "you remind me of my sisters" - an example of the behind the scenes clear up work of team Jordan. The mistake however lives on in the translations ...

Ch. 7: How does the trout catching trick work? Delving? Or a talent to "call animals" (part of much RL magic)?

Ch. 8: Jarra, Noam, Simion ... important but pretty straightforward.

Ch 9: Perrin met Lanfear in Ch. 4, why doesn't he recognize her here? - Btw, Min is rather confusing with her talk of a "beautiful woman" - but could she say "I've met Lanfear, and if she comes for you ..."?

Twice said in these chapters that the three ta'veren are necessary for the LB, just Moiraine is slow to understand.

And now forward, to the heavy stuff about the Pattern ...
 
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Toral Delvar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

It seems the Shadow is fully aware that the three ta'veren are important, so why don'tthey try harder to kill Mat or Perrin? At this stage, they are trying to kill Rand
 

Imzadi Hopewind

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Chapter 6:
:eek Yikes. Those are scary stories to tell your children!
-What was with Min's advice for Perrin to run when he sees a beautiful woman? :brown-blink: Who's that supposed to be? Lanfear?

You know, in RL fairytales were really scary long time ago, but last 100 years or so, it's more like Disney, with happy endings. Just read Grimms stories :pleased-1:

Yes, it was Lanfear Min were talking about, but I doubt that Min knew it was Lanfear for sure?

Finally Perrin remember Hopper! :facepalm, took him a while to get that one! (I think it's chapter 9, when he get bitten by Hopper to get out of the dream). I think Perrin were too strong into the Dream World?
 

Kassina Tendar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Chapter 9:
-When Perrin encounters Lanfear in the dream, she Travels. It's clear that it's Traveling now, though on my first read-through, I wouldn't have recognized it.
-Similarly, I'm not sure if it is, but it almost sounds like Rand's using Balefire on the dogs (why are dogs coming after him in the first place? :brown-blink:)

Chapter 10:
-:facepalm I can definitely feel Verin's frustration with the girls for using the Power on the Whitcloaks. Seriously... Talk about overreacting.

Chapter 11:
-It mentions the Aiel War being 'not quite twenty years before'. I keep forgetting how recently that was! It always feels like ancient history until it gets mentioned specifically like this. Maybe it's because the main characters are so young so the war was before their lifetime which makes it feel like it was a long time ago. (like how world events that happened before I was born/conscious of them seem like they were so much longer ago than ones that have happened within my lifetime)
-Hurin offering to help them whenever they need it is sweet. :pleased-1: I really like Hurin.
-Egwene thinks to herself that Faolain will for sure choose the Red Ajah. It's really amazing the negative reputation the Red Ajah has, even within the Tower itself!

Chapter 12:
-Siuan keeps thinking to herself that she's going to get stilled. Though I'm sure she doesn't yet expect Leane to get caught up in it.
-Siuan and Verin are so cold when they dance around the subject of killing Mat because he blew the horn. :indifferent: And when Siuan rejects the idea, it's only because it's not practical... I realize they're on a mission to save the world, but wow.

Chapter 13:
-Egwene and Elayne really are raised to Accepted quite fast. :brown-blink: Even knowing how powerful they are, it still kinda just feels like a plot device. I suppose Siuan needed them to be Accepted so they could have more freedom in searching out the Black Ajah.. but that only really explains Egwene, since Elayne isn't even in on that. As someone earlier said, I can understand Egwene having grown a lot in the Power, but Elayne has barely used it at all since they left the Tower! (except apparently to learn deadly weaves from Egwene)
-Morgase refuses to take Elaida back with her. Makes me wonder how things would've turned out differently if Elaida had returned to Caemlyn.

Chapter 14:
-Siuan thinking through who she can trust: "Leane and Sheriam, at least. But do I dare? Verin? I already trust Verin with more than my life, but how far can I take it? Moiraine?"
No worries, Siuan, only half of the people you list are Black Ajah. :laugh: She really lucked out with Verin!
-:rolleyes Nynaeve and her distrust of Moiraine. I realize you don't like her, but that doesn't mean she's flat-out not to be trusted! She flat-out tells Siuan that Moiraine isn't to be trusted. I quite liked Siuan's reaction. :p
-Siuan mentions that she has to believe Nynaeve and Egwene aren't Black Ajah. Can the term Black Ajah then be used for Novices/Accepted, too? I just figured the term only applied to Aes Sedai.
-It's quite ominous now knowing the significance of 13 Black Ajah leaving the Tower.

Chapter 15:
-Egwene and Nynaeve talk about keeping the 3 oaths while hunting the Black Ajah. But the oaths do allow for using the Power against darkfriends. They're talking as if they can't use the Power against the Black Ajah. I mean, I guess the problem is that you have to be sure someone is a Darkfriend. But they're acting as if that 3rd oath doesn't even exist. Do they not know the exact wording? :scratch Do they think it forbids all use of the Power as a weapon?

Chapter 15:
-Who stabbed the Gray Man? Was it in fact another Gray Man like Egwene thinks? Was it Sheriam?
-It seems so obvious now that Sheriam is Black Ajah
-Nynaeve mentions that Sheriam never questioned who stabbed the Gray Man. Even knowing Sheriam is Black Ajah, I don't really see that as suspicious... I mean, I realize Sheriam kinda lost her cool but Aes Sedai are known for being rather closed-off with their thoughts. It's not that weird that she wouldn't wonder aloud to a Novice and Accepted about who killed the Gray Man. Besides, Nynaeve and Egwene told her they found the Gray Man that way so they wouldn't have seen who stabbed him. The only reason I can think for Sheriam to mention who killed him would be to ask the two of them if they knew... and obviously they didn't if they found him like that. :cheeseeni:
 

Iria Saronin

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Chapter 9:

-Similarly, I'm not sure if it is, but it almost sounds like Rand's using Balefire on the dogs (why are dogs coming after him in the first place? :brown-blink:)
For some reason, Kassina Sedai, I thought they were Darkhounds. Maybe because it really sounded like Balefire. But then, as it was said that "It didn't work every time", Rand would have been dead quite quickly. :arch

Chapter 10:
-:facepalm I can definitely feel Verin's frustration with the girls for using the Power on the Whitcloaks. Seriously... Talk about overreacting.
Yes, to me that was the most facepalm moment for a long time...

-Egwene thinks to herself that Faolain will for sure choose the Red Ajah. It's really amazing the negative reputation the Red Ajah has, even within the Tower itself!
Not strictly related to this, but do I remember correctly that Faolain chose the White?

Chapter 14:
-Siuan thinking through who she can trust: "Leane and Sheriam, at least. But do I dare? Verin? I already trust Verin with more than my life, but how far can I take it? Moiraine?"
No worries, Siuan, only half of the people you list are Black Ajah. :laugh: She really lucked out with Verin!
:laugh: I laughed a lot about this, Kassina Sedai. :D

Chapter 15:
-It seems so obvious now that Sheriam is Black Ajah
During my first round of reading, I was convinced at this point that Sheriam is Black. But then books went on and on, and she never did anything suspicious, and after few books I had to abandon my belief. :laugh: I really felt somehow betrayed when she finally showed her true color.. (Or shoud we say, when she denied her true color out loud :P )
 

Toral Delvar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

We also see Egwene getting flustered by Galad and everyone noticing his interest in her. In one of the later books, Elayne changed this to Nynaeve, which I remember reading was supposedly not a mistake. They only have a few chapters before they are off again, so we will have to see if there is any interaction that explains why she later decides she loves Gawyn and not Galad
 

Toral Delvar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

To kill the gray man?
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

Slayer reflected on stabbing the Gray Man in Winter's Heart.
- But why would he be in the Tower...?
- To kill the gray man?
Weird power plays among the forsaken. Maybe Ishmael sent the Grey Man (after he failed to have the girls "neutralized" as damane), and Lanfear sent Slayder - they had some place in her schemes.
 
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Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 9-15

TDR Prolouge : Ah the Classic Lawful Evil plot “Create a Problem just so you can be the solution to that problem” I hate that scheme, mostly because it is very very effective especially in real life, it takes a long term view to pull off but it can be incredibly effective at working if you keep the plot together.

With Caradin is a plot that really ends up going nowhere really, he shows up in Tanchico later, and then Ebou Dar, but neither really matter to much in the overall scheme.

TDR 1 : Perrin seems to be in a commanding role among the camp, It shows that he is comfortable in command, his unease only seemed to come when the Two Rivers folk seem to put him in command.

TDR 2 : Oh Moraine you try to control Rand, it is odd to see Moraine so “young” when it comes to dealing with a Tav'eren, and the scene in seclusion is part of why I have my theories on the taint, the eye of the world and Rand's instability as he goes later and later on in the series, His worst moments always come when he is “forcing” himself to be “hard” like Moraine is doing with the Dragonsworn, Rand's deepest instincts say to go to them and gather them together so that they are safe, however Moraine talks him into the opposite path of leaving them out in the cold.

TDR 3: You know what would be a good idea, when Moraine directly says “Rand's actions might have drawn attention to them from fades” You know what would have been a REALLY GOOD IDEA PERRIN? Asking the wolves, who you know hate Trollocs and Fades, who can smell them IF THEY ARE AROUND! *headdesk* I know you don't want to go all insane and werewolf, but there are times when things like Demons attacking the camp in the middle of the night are important enough to ASK about.

TDR 4: Oh look, the Wolves are trying to warn you that Darkspawn are coming, Perhaps they have been doing that all day! *grumbles* perhaps you could have warned early enough to save the tinker woman you were so worried about saving.

TDR 5: Attack on the camp, Thing to note, Perrin is the first of the Emmon's Folk that kills a Fade on his own, so he gains a little ground back on the fact that he put his mental well being ahead of the physical well being of every one else, including the Savior of All of time and space, it is not like if he dies everyone is doomed, and you probably were born to help him and all. *glare*

TDR 6: Rand runs off to find Thunderfur...err Callandor of note he still does not 100% have faith that he is infact the Dragon Reborn, and wants to prove it one way or another.
 

Imzadi Hopewind

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 16-22

I wonder how many life Mat have lived as gambler and a leader of army? Chapter 19 made me wonder :)
 

Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 16-22

I wonder how many life Mat have lived as gambler and a leader of army? Chapter 19 made me wonder :)

Well since the wheel constantly repeats, Infinite since at least he would be Mat an infinite number of times, however he is probably "The Gambler" that crops up in various stories and legends.
 

Toral Delvar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 16-22

I wonder about that. The heroes told him he was not tied to the Horn (though I can't find that conversation). Can a person live multiple lives in a similar role without being tied that way?
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 16-22

I wonder about that. The heroes told him he was not tied to the Horn (though I can't find that conversation). Can a person live multiple lives in a similar role without being tied that way?
We don't know about the mechanism and frequency of rebirth - while memories of past lives seem to be rare and signs of madness, certain basic personality structures seem to be preserved. Being a gambler / trickster, maybe he is living right among us as a investment banker or a used car dealer, and the pattern only needs him once in a full cycle as ta'veren.
 

Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 16-22

TDR:6 - Rand heads off to pull the sword from the stone, and we say goodbye to the Shenarins for a long time, only to come back when Maesema goes completely off the deep end and needs stabbed, I am actually amazed that Uno let Maesema get away with any of that, I would have thought that the one eyed veteran would have put Maesema to digging out latrines the moment he caused any sort of trouble.

TDR:7 - I wonder if Rand is skimming or using The World of Dreams to travel faster than normal, since he is leaving zero trail that Perrin can find.

TDR: 8 – And now Perrin is fully into his plot, which while I love Perrin takes way to long to deal with, he is going back and forth between Wolf and Man for about 9 more books now, until he meets Noam again, for some good purpose, though you would think Elyas would have showed Perrin that a balance can be made, Elyas did not go insane, he just doesn't like people very much.

TDR: 9 – Rand Balefires a Darkhound, which mind you is the only way to deal with the freaking things from any way we can tell, forbidden weave my rump, also Perrin also almost ruins some of Lanfear's plans. Such a shame that would be for him to catch her stalking Rand and ruin that glorious plan.

TDR: 10 – I love Verin here, especially in light of later plot points, the way she utterly scolds all 3 Girls for what they did, and then Egwene promptly plants her foot in her mouth, it is so fun to see her screw up early on in the series, it makes her manipulating everyone in the tower conflict much more entertaining.

TDR: 11 – Bye bye Hurin, we will see you in in like 9 books and then the Girls are sent to their rooms, without DINNER! DUN DUN DUN!!!

TDR: 12 – I love Siuan's response to the horn getting dropped straight in her lap, it was the Aes Sedai version of “What the -expletive- is that crap!” and we have the start of The White Tower completely ignoring the invading army that turns channelers into slaves. Funny how ignoring the people across the world who more or less outright state “we are going to subjugate your lands and turn your people into slaves” backfires in the worst ways possible.

TDR: 13 – It somewhat amazes me that Elayne disappearing did not start an outright war between Andor and The White Tower. Of course, Siuan knows that Morgase is smart enough to be able to keep a secret, so really she should have fessed up about Liandrin in secret. The whole “Dark Friends can exist in any nation, class or peoples, poor or rich, high or lowborn, Blood Thirsty Mercenary or Traveling People, any of them can join the shadow...Except for Us, we would never be Dark Friends” thing did more damage than good overall. Secrets for the sake of secrets do no good, and that seems to be the majority of the things Aes Sedai keep from other people. *glares at Moraine*

TDR: 14 – The one thing that bugs me about how Egwene and Nynaeve go about searching for the Blacks, they don't realize being an Accepted, and generally going about completely unnoticed is a complete advantage to them, they can ask to visit several different Sisters and ask questions, hide it in learning more of the Tower and the Ajahs.

TDR: 15 – Okay, I don't know the mechanics of the one power to well, I thought you had to see where you were weaving to create a weave, outside of stuff like Traveling, however you need a rough idea of where you are weaving a gateway to, as well as knowledge of the area you are in.

TDR: 16 - I love Nynaeve here, just that countdown to scare the Boys out of the room was great, however I still hate the fact that the Fem Trio? Alt Trio? Accepted Trio? Does the fandom have a name for the 3 main female characters of the series? I call Rand/Mat/Perrin the Ta'veren

TDR: 17 - Yes Rand is a Ta'veren, you know this Elaida the fact that you know this and still pull the crap you do later, Did you expect it to end well? Screwing with someone who the pattern weaves around and forces them on a certain path at time? Did you really think that screwing around with that person's destiny would not end any other way but “Oh god that was stupid”

TDR: 18 – Mat is healed, the Dagger is stuffed in a box and we see the Occarina of Ti..err the Flute that Egwene uses later.

TDR: 19 – In the words of Monkey D. Luffy…...FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! Is it bad that food was described here, and afterwards my first thought was “Man, Martin would have spent an entire paragraph on that food” In some alternate universe GRRM and Robert Jordan did a collaboration effort it would be all Food and Clothing descriptions.

TDR: 20 – It is a wonder that Lanfear did not get herself in trouble with the Dark One long before she did considering she outright says she is going to stab him in the back by the end of it. I had thought for a long time that if Rand were to kill the Dark One, Lanfear would end up taking the DO's place simply by stabbing everyone in the back at the right time and taking the power for herself.

TDR 21 – Verin seems to be the first person in the story to peg onto the idea that “Ba'alzamon” is not really the Dark One and that it might be Ishamael. Mind you I pegged into that in the first book, I didn't even think until book two that the characters were mistaking Ishamael for the Dark One I think, that or I was saying “NO DUH” when they figure it out.

TDR 22 – Egwene as Amyriln what an utterly absurd idea! That would never happen in a million years. *cough* moving on from my sarcasm The Ter'Angreal beats Egwene over the head repeatedly with the fact that she has to leave Rand, like not even in a funny way, even Nyneave only had one vision about Lan.

It is a shame we don't get to see Elyane's visions, I am curious about what they are. No reason really just curiosity.
 

Rhed al'Tere

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Dragon Reborn 23-29

Chapter 6

  • We see sin again here, with Masema the zealot.
  • What flipped the switch in Masema, from hating Rand to revering him? Then again, what flips the switch in anyone to zealotry?
  • Perrin: "If there's no safety in Tar Valon, there's no safety anywhere." So true, my friend.
Chapter 7
  • Was Moiraine using the Power? Or just plain old manipulation to make Loial and Perrin do everything?
Chapter 8
  • In Jarra, Perrin doesn't understand what it means to be ta'veren yet.
  • Did Moiraine suspect Noam was a Wolfbrother, and that's why she took Perrin with her? Or was it because Simion approached Perrin and apparently felt more comfortable with him?
Chapter 9
  • Perrin is introduced to the wolf dream. Hopper's back!
  • Rand uses balefire -- on Darkhounds?
Chapter 10
  • Egwene is so dumb! Nynaeve and Elayne too.
  • I love Verin.
Chapter 12
  • I always had the idea that the Amyrlin's study was at the top of the Tower. But Suian's balcony overlooks her private garden, so it must be very low in the Tower.
  • When did Taim turn to the Shadow?
Chapter 13
  • Does anyone know Verin is a double agent?
  • I don't understand how Suian can fault them for "being winkled out" of the Tower. Is she looking back -- hindsight being 20/20? This is so frustrating to me. They're taught to ask how high when an Aes Sedai says jump, and obey all commands immediately, and yet they're punished for obeying commands from an Aes Sedai!! It's...it's...hypocritical, a bit, to tell Novices to question Aes Sedai when they'll be punished for it in any circumstance that doesn't involve known Black Ajah! :tug :mad
  • When does Rahvyn begin influencing Morgase?
Chapter 14


  • We see Suian unsure of even Leane and Moiraine.
  • Suian has *no* idea of how big the Black Ajah is.
  • Nynaeve: "Any full sister can tell us to go about our business, or send us off to do her laundry, and we will have no choice but to obey." EXACTLY. WHY ELSE WOULD THEY HAVE GONE WITH LIANDRIN. GAAAAAAAH.
 
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