2015 Re-Readalong: Eye of the World and The Great Hunt

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

I had a lot of problems with that chapter. It's like we're seeing a channeling battle through Rand's limited (or non-existent) understanding of channeling, and it just makes it super confusing to the reader as well.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

I've always thought that maybe Jordan hadn't decided yet how to handle Channeling, and this was simply an early iteration.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

^ This, I can see how Skimming was used and the Balefire, but it just seemed an early version.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Yeah, that sound logical Mai...

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Leira Galene said:

Yeah I am so confused by that chapter. Why can Rand see the "black cord"? Why can he see his own cord of light? How is he travelling automatically-- is Lews Therin taking over? I just have lots of questions, since it's so different from how we see channeling presented later.

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I don't have the book here right now, but I remember wondering the same things. I thought that travelling was not accomplished by LT taking over, to me it seemed more like Rand is subconsciously using his old instincts, which are something less than clear memories, and which he is already then sharing with LT. Quite vague, still.

When I read this chapter, I figured that maybe the cord of light Rand saw was actually One Power coming from the Eye of the World, as he was using pure Saidin, instead of really touching the Source? I think he could see the Power flowing to him, in a much same way that he can see the weaves. But this still doesn't explain the black cords...

As a side note, I'd love to take part to this re-readalong if it's possible to hop in in the middle?

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Iria Saronin said:

As a side note, I'd love to take part to this re-readalong if it's possible to hop in in the middle?

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Absolutely! Just hop right in.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Yay another readalong buddy! :joy

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Great, thanks Maibella and Megana Sedai! I'll just need to make a quick trip to library to fetch the book.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

I'll comment later on the chapters I haven't done yet, but just to say, the "flashback" chapters where we jump forward a couple of days and then head back to the Dancing Cartman were my least favourite in the series. I think what Jordan was trying to do was give a sense of Rand's confusion, but it just does not work

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

He can't have used balefire Because both Aginor and Balthamel came back later on... They are Asan'gar and Osan'gar... Never remember which one is which, but it is definitely those two...

Other than that, yes I agree that it is confusing, and I wonder why these cords of black is not used later to discover Darkfriends or at least dark channelers

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Well, I figured the black cord was Ba'alzamon's connection to the True Source (since that's what he's probably channeling), so I don't think it could be used for every Darkfriend, since so few get to channel it. But that still doesn't answer why Rand could see it/cut it.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Notes for the last EotW chapters...

Chapter 49:

The Green Man always cracks me up. I feel like his first words to everyone are exactly what one of us fans (or at least me) would do if randomly dropped into Randland. Say all the spoilery things that don't make sense to anyone yet.

Chapter 50:

The giant pool of saidin always confuses me. I always thought of saidar and saidin like a force that could be mentally gathered, not something that could be physically collected in a pool.

Chapter 51:

Already talking about this.

Chapter 52:

I was also confused if "Ba'alzamon" and Aginor were really the same person or two different people. In general, I just kinda gave up on making sense of this whole section.

Chapter 53:

I remember being thrown by this the first few times I read. First they're going to Tar Valon. Then they're going to the Blight. Now they're going to Illian. Why Illian? Why not Tar Valon? So confused! (Of course, it makes much more sense now.)

Starting book two tonight, yay! :joy

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

I'll add my comments about the cords when I get there.

Chapter 42
Dreamwalking first mentioned here.
Foreshadowing here in Rand's thoughts: "Moiraine wants to use one of us [as a false Dragon].
Well, sort of foreshadowing. She does want to use one of them, but not to set up as a false Dragon.

Chapter 43
"The Ways are not part of the world we see around us, nor perhaps of any world outside of themselves."
The Ways are a living thing. Machin Shin didn't used to be there; it evolved from something within the Ways.
What need does Moiraine have of Nynaeve's herbs?
Black Ajah is mentioned again (by Ba'alzamon).
Moiraine Heals Rand without asking him first -- breech of etiquette.

Chapter 44
In the days when the Ways were light and safe, what happened if someone fell off?
Is Machin Shin drawn by the dagger? Is Moiraine's protection she did around the dagger enough to keep it away?

Chapter 45
Loial is so eater to get out of the Ways that he's willing to face the Elders.
Loial knows that it's not just a trip to Fal Dara, not just the Eye of the World. He has a sense that the journey is going to be longer than that.
Random: What about transgender channelers? Would they channel according to biological sex or the gender they actually are?
Napkins. They brought napkins into the Ways.
Mat: "[Min] must be nearly as old as Nynaeve." Nynaeve's not that old, Mat.
When Moiraine spoke to everyone as they were trying to sleep, did she channel to help convince them? What was her special channeling thing that she kept hidden when she went to the Tower? Convincing, or eavesdropping? (Those are the two I remember being mentioned.)
And here we see Moiraine's staff ruined by the taint in the Ways.

Chapter 46
Lan is so cheerful to be back in the Borderlands!
Borderlanders seem more likely to remember the old ways and customs -- see the way they greeted Loial.
I want to hear the story of how Moiraine first met the Green Man.
I like that Loial can learn to see things in a different light, and see the beauty in different kinds of workmanship from what the Ogier do.
"The Light shields madmen." Ha!

Chapter 47
When Nynaeve and Lan marry, does she take the royal el' prefix on her name (like el'Leanna)?
Isam and Lan are the same age.
THIS WAS SUPER EXCITING TO ME. Jain Farstrider has a place in Malkier history -- he captured the Darkfriend Cowin Fairheart.
"If ever he raised the Golden Crane of Malkier, an army would come to follow." Nynaeve never forgets this.
Moiraine, of Fain: There is something worse to him than a Darkfriend.
"Mashadar and other things" What other things live in Shadar Logoth?

Chapter 48
We see a comparison of Lan and Perrin. Lan has years of training to be able to ignore the effects of the Blight. Is it Perrin's wolfiness that lets him ignore it? Some sense of "it is what it is, and I'll deal with it"? Accepting what he can't change, like a wolf would?
Mat has a weak stomach and pukes a lot.
I would have liked Perrin or Mat's viewpoint here.
Nynaeve and Lan's conversation was so sad.

Chapter 50
The ancient Aes Sedai managed to cleanse a little bit of saidin.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

@Toral Cambrae & Imzadi Hopewind: Skimming, yes. Balefire, no: Aginor burnt himself out by taking in too much too fast from the Saidin contained in the Eye. Like Baal'zamon later says, "I thought his greed would kill him".
The first time we see balefire is in TDR, from Nynaeve against the fades (ch. 39), then from Moirane against the darkhounds in Ilian (ch. 43) and against Bel'al. Funny that Nynaeve says somewhére later "I don't want to learn a fancy way of killing", while she unconsciously knows all along.
And yes, Aginor will be recycled by the DO, called Osangar, aka Corlan Dashiva (LoC to WH, where he is ironically killed by BA member Elza Penfell). And Balthamael (who "still knows the pleasures of the flesh") was transgender recycled into Arangar / Halima, and found some of these pleasures before being balefired out of the pattern in TGS.

@Leira Gallene: Seeing the cords is quite alright as Rand himself is holding Saidin, hence he would see the flow of energies. (But why the black cord as well? Is the True Power more akin to Saidin than to Saidar? In any case, it happens again in TDR, last pages of ch. 55.)

@Maibella Rhoiden:

I've always thought that maybe Jordan hadn't decided yet how to handle Channeling

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Yes, precisely. He had an idea about the onset of it - quite parallel in Rand as explained to Nynaeve by Moiraine - and he could use some of the descriptions used in TEotW later, but in this chapter everything remains unexplained (and probably, from what we learn about channeling later, unexplainable). - In a review of the series I praised Jordan for his "enchantingly technoid" system of magic, but that's just 90% true.

So, what to say about ch. 51? I'd suggest: "Rand accomplishes miraculous things without knowing what he does, and he even manages not to burn himself out."
And then there is the voice out of nowhere, I could have very well done without that. "I will take no part", umh, is that so? Or is that so only because there are proxy mechanisms in the pattern?

Back to ch. 49: Moiraine dissolves her wards (like picking out embroidery, a knowledgeable person says 16 month later), but then, we learn that this is just not done. Eg and Nyn are kind of touched by the process (rubbing their arms), while Rand feels a "feather-light brush across his mind". Won't happen like this later on - more evidence for what Maibella Rhoiden wrote. - On the way back, do the women form a circle?

"This place is always where it is ... All that changes is where those who need it are", says the Green Man. Well, that is fairy tale magic.

The Green Man identifies them correctly - Wolfbrother, Child of the Dragon - but conveniently can't remember when asked for details.

Ch. 50: Like the 2 Rivers, this place is an idyl which will be disturbed soon.

"I'd really like to see the Tree of Life" (Mat). He will.
"its ungentle branches"??? When they come to Avendesora, it just feels good to sit under it.

I liked the way how the Green Man killed Balthamael by mobilizing fungi etc. Good idea, and quite within the Green Man's powers.

Ch. 52: Focus on Egwene - "The boy I love was just revealed as a monster to frighten little children with" - given the circumstances, she takes it well, and some commiseration will be in order. Min told Rand that there was no future for him and Eg, she didn't tell her. Half a year later, Min will say "You tossed him away for the White Tower" to Egwene, which is more than a bit unjust.
We, the readers, of course know that this must happen, but that does not lessen the pain for Eg and Rand.
Nynaeve, for once quite levelheaded: "You're still Rand al'Thor of Emondsfield ... but you are too dangerous ..."

"My mother!" - Good boys love their parents, yes. If I'd live in Randland, I guess I'd be a darkfriend, or maybe just a stableman like Hu and Tad and care about nothing but horses. Strokes me up the wrong way any time this topic comes up.

Trying cuendelliar with steel? Trying with the Power would have a more convincing result.

Ch. 53: Why / how the effect on the Blight?

Anglemar saw a man - praise the Light, he didn't wear glasses.

And altogether: WHAT WAS REALLY ACHIEVED AT TH EYE?

"We struck a mighty blow", says Moiraine, but then, as Nyn observed, she says a whole lot of things.

Rand identified as a channeler and as the Dragon Reborn, yes. And his intervention at the battle at Tarwin's Gap definitely was helpful. Two of the Forsaken temporarily out of action, Baal'zamon wounded and weakened (just to bounce back time & again). The Eye kept out of reach of the Dark. OK, that much achieved. - "The world's greatest need"? Really?

Then why / how the effect on the Blight? Why is spring back? Please, do not try to answer these questions, there is no rational answer.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Rhed al'Tere said:

Random: What about transgender channelers? Would they channel according to biological sex or the gender they actually are?

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Given what we see with Asan'gar, when the DO brings him back with a biological sex different from his gender, I would imagine trans channelers would channel according to their gender rather than biological sex. I do wonder how it would work with people who don't fit into the gender binary, though.

Rhed al'Tere said:

When Nynaeve and Lan marry, does she take the royal el' prefix on her name (like el'Leanna)?

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I'm pretty sure I remember one of the Borderlanders referring to her as "el'Nynaeve" at one point, but I don't remember who or in what book.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Rhed al'Tere said:

When Nynaeve and Lan marry, does she take the royal el' prefix on her name (like el'Leanna)?

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"My name is Nynaeve ti al'Meara Mandragoran." - KoD, ch. 20. Well, she's got the al' already ...

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

"El'Nynaeve, she came to us, you see."
ToM, Prologue (page 17, hardcover edition)
So though she doesn't use it herself, others use it to refer to her.
And it's spelled Aran'gar, not Asan'gar.
The black cords come up later, in Rhuedian. Rand severs them with the Choedan Kal, removing Asmodean's protection from the taint on saidin. (TSR, Chapter 58)

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Murun said:

And altogether: WHAT WAS REALLY ACHIEVED AT TH EYE?

"We struck a mighty blow", says Moiraine, but then, as Nyn observed, she says a whole lot of things.

Rand identified as a channeler and as the Dragon Reborn, yes. And his intervention at the battle at Tarwin's Gap definitely was helpful. Two of the Forsaken temporarily out of action, Baal'zamon wounded and weakened (just to bounce back time & again). The Eye kept out of reach of the Dark. OK, that much achieved. - "The world's greatest need"? Really?

Then why / how the effect on the Blight? Why is spring back? Please, do not try to answer these questions, there is no rational answer.

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I have this rather cynical view that the ending of tEotW is designed so that if the book had been a flop, this standalone could somewhat be explained to be "the whole story". It was never said straight that Ba'alzamon is not the Dark One, and the fight at Tarwin's Gap could be thought to be "the Last Battle". So if the publisher wouldn't have accepted the next books, tEotW would have looked like one complete saga. (I don't like this theory, though, but it seems to me the most logical and probable explanation for the weird things in the ending. Please someone prove me wrong! ) Of course, there are still enough cliff-hangers to keep the reader thinking that this can't really be the end. Like the fact that the Horn was not used, and the words of Moiraine about the Prophecies.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Ok, so Rand didn't use Balefire. But didn't Lan and the girls got killed by Aginor? Or just knocked out? That's why I'm confused.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: EoTW, 49-53; TGH Pro & 1

Imzadi Hopewind said:

But didn't Lan and the girls got killed by Aginor? Or just knocked out? That's why I'm confused.

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Nynaeve, Lan, Mat, Perrin were just knocked out, but came to their feet again before the Green Man finished Balthamael off. Egwene didn't attack (Rand prevented it) and, like Loial, ran away unharmed. No one knows what happened to Moiraine, that she took so long to recover from.

@Iria Saronin: Interesting theory, thank you.