Aviendha's viewings

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Alath Dalvorian

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Correct me if I am wrong, but when Aviendha went to Rhuidean and saw the ( possible ) future of her people there was no mention of Rand defeating or being defeated by the DO, more to do with the Seanchan conquering the lands and their struggle with that.
Anybody have any thoughts on this?
 
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Actually, I don't believe it DID say. But, it was certainly implied that, in that future, Rand won. Because, if not, the Seanchan would be focused on surviving. It mentions that Rand "left them" I believe, I think that was 1 or 2 generations from Avi herself.

See, I'm curious about the "Dragon's Peace". It didn't say when he instituted it, so it could be before or after the Last Battle, it's hard to say. It could be at the Merrilor (was that the name?) meeting. Or after the Last Battle. But, I'm thinking it will be before, because he needs it to get the people to work together. One of the biggest problems in many of the armies being gathered is that they are multi-national, and the people from different nations don't get along well. Perrin had a huge problem with that really. Somehow, Rand has to get the people of the Light to be unified in spirit so that they can beat the Shadow at Tarmon Gai'don.
 

Leo Kian

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I remember Rand saying he wanted the various rulers gathered at Merrilor to agree to something in order for him to even go and fight TLB, I presumed this was the Dragons Peace. Wouldn't make sense if he had no kind of leverage over them after the Battle.
 
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Borias

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Yeah no clear mention, but it seemed heavily implied. The thing that seemed particularly strange to me, is even in the 1 generation removed 'memories', was that there was no interaction with any of the main characters. That stuck out the most to me- her kids didn't interact with *any* of the main cast? No Min, Elayne, Mat, Perrin? (or Aviendha for that matter)

It could be intentional, to create some literary separation and not make it as personal, but it also carried some pretty darn dark undertones with it.
 
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Yeah, that's actually probably what bothered me the most about it. And not in a "ZOMG HOW DARE YOU DO THIS TO THE AIEL" way because the rest of it bugged me in that way, but more in a "WTF LITERARY FAIL" kind of way because really? They ALL die? EVERYONE? So it makes me think either (a) there is epic literary fail going on, or (b) the visions aren't as innocuous as we were led to believe.
 
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Garienn Aerlyn

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Borias, I'm not sure I was surprised so much about the 1 generation removed characters not interacting with the ones we are familiar with now. 2 reasons. 1) It is TLB, it is quite possible in my mind that *most* of them could die, but 2) they just might not be interacting with any of them during the vision? It didn't feel to me as if they thought of most of them as dead and gone. Just didn't think of them? Not sure.
 
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Oh, Kiante, I mean maybe they aren't just random visions but they were designed to be a certain way specifically for Aviendha. To freak her out more. Because if she was IN them, or still alive in them, she could have just been like "Well now I know what's going to happen and I can just not do whatever..." you know?
 
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I do find the lack of mention of any of Rand's kids or possible kids with anyone but Avi a disturbing thing. After all Elayne is already preggo with Rand's first two children and one would think that being "Children of the Dragon" they would feature prominitly in future dealings of the kingdoms mainly as a way to at least tie the Aiel and Andor more tightly to Rand and his bloodlines. I think personally that Robert and Sanderson were focused mostly on getting through the Tower of Genghei and rescueing whats her name that they didn't have time to really go into everything.
 
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Seth al'Kerr

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Remember when the Aiel went to Caemlyn and brought them into the war? The Queen had the Dragon Banner flying, because she was descended from Rand (and Elayne).
 
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Blayde al'Isanim

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Hmmmm How far into the future were Aviendha's viewings? Does it ever really specify?
 
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Seth al'Kerr

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Blayde al'Isanim said:
Hmmmm How far into the future were Aviendha's viewings? Does it ever really specify?

Not precisely. You know how old her and Rand's children are, so you can take the present time + nine months + that age for the most recent, then (at minimum) 9 months + the age of the next generation. It'll give you a general idea.
 
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Keo Avery

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I don't believe there would have been any viewings of a DO win. The reason I believe this is that it states that if the DO wins that will be the end of all time. If the Wheel stops turning then there would be no future to see.
 
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Seth al'Kerr

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All prophecy after the Last Battle is conditional. The Dark One could win (though obviously, for narrative purposes, he won't). If he did, the destruction of the Wheel would render those prophecies irrelevant. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying, but I wanted to help make it clear.
 
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We have never seen any other Wise One go through Rhudiean a second time. Perhaps that is what is suppose to happen. Each future Aiel Wise One will see possible bleak futures so that they may lead the Aiel away from such disasters. Therefore, the ter'angreal shows Aiel would could happen if they do not except some monumental change and/or they must accept that they must help shape the future of their people. Also, because many of her visions were of the Aiel being hunted down by the Seanchan, the ter'angreal is showing her her worst possible fears so that she strengthens her resolve. And since Wise Ones only speak of Rhuidean only to one another it is hard to say what others have seen.
 
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My theory is that Aviendha's viewing leads to a situation where the Seanchen have to learn that Sul'dam can channel. If you think about this, it throws the biggest wrench into a society that draws it's power from damane.

While Aviendha's viewing shows that the Aiel must not go to war with the Seanchen, if you destroy the ability of the Seanchen to use damane in battle you effectively destroy their ability to wage war as without the damane they're now an intimidating foe but not as insurmountable. We've seen the reaction of a sul'dam who has learned that she can channel is to demand being leashed. I do not believe that Tuon would accept the a'dam as readily as most others but this is the most effective way that I can see to maintain the Dragon Peace as I think that regardless the Seanchen would eventually break it if they truly believed that they could be victorous.

Sri'vastra - While we can't be sure that no Wise One has ever been through the ter'angreal twice I think that Aviendha was a special situation. Prior to Rand disclosing the secret of the columns to all of the Aiel, it would have been chore enough to go through once as we saw that it broke one person who tried. Afterward the visions are no longer as jarring to the ego of a people who realize that they have a toh to their ancestors that they cannot repay. Perhaps at some point in the distant past it was intended that Wise One's and Chief walked through twice and the ter'angreal was designed for that purpose (for both the past and future) however when someone walked through it the images made no sense because they had no context of the Seanchen or many of the other things that gave meaning to Aviendha's vision.
 
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It also seems reasonable that if any Aiel Wise Ones or Chiefs had gone through twice, the future visions would function in a similar manner to Aviendha's; they would see the same future, albeit through the eyes of their own bloodline. If any Aiel had, I would think that at least among the select few who could speak of the things they saw, they would preserve the knowledge of the Seanchan, an unknown enemy who would nonetheless bring about their destruction. The Aiel in the books do not seem to have any knowledge of the Seanchan when they return, so it seems unlikely they had any forewarning about them. The knowledge could have been lost I suppose, if Wise Ones and Chiefs stopped going through a second time. But as Nethanel pointed out, returning to the columns doesn't seem to be something anyone else ever considered, as it would be extremely taxing the first time through and there would be little point to return to the city later.

And I don't have my book to check, but does anyone know if before re-investigating the columns, Aviendha mentions whether or not returning to them is forbidden? I feel like I've read that somewhere, but it could have just been in a post somewhere and I'm at work so I can't look it up.
 
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Seth al'Kerr

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I don't think revealing that sul'dam can learn to channel is going to drop a bomb on Seanchan society. After all, look at how Tuon responded when she found out. She still thinks channeling is vile, and responds, "Fine. Perhaps I can. But I choose not to."

That's not to say that I think they won't come around, but it's not going to be from something as simple as just revealing to Seanchan society that sul'dam can learn. Perhaps Tuon will be in a situation where she's about to die, and some Aes Sedai or Wise One will save her. That might be the added kick you need.

Incidentally, one sure way to put society in turmoil and set the High Blood thinking that maybe she needs to go sooner rather than later would be to entertain freeing damane. Maybe that's why her reign is so short, in the vision?

Obviously, this is all just speculation on my part.
 
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