Was this The ONLY Last Battle for every cycle?

Is it possible, that this was the only Last Battle that there ever was? I only suggest this for a couple of reasons. One, the dark one exists outside of time, and so when Rand stepped outside the pattern he was outside of time itself. Wouldn't this mean that there would be an infinite number of Dragons there too? Unless it only happened once? This could be explained by the time warping around the bore. This warping would also account for all of the varied realities that Perrin saw when he killed slayer. At the time he was very close to the Bore and reality would have been very thin. Therefore, at a critical moment like killing his nemesis, he saw all of the realities that were centered in time around the single moment of the Dragon sealing the bore. What I am suggesting is that the pattern loops itself back to the same event, the sealing of the bore, with occurs an infinite number of times throughout the pattern, but really only once. A time line would look like a rose on a polar graph with an infinite number of petals, and the sealing of the bore existing at the center. So everything except for the actual conflict would occur differently, like the battle that Matt lead, but it would become more and more similar until as you approached the Bore, until you reached Rand. There it would have warped enough for it to be the exact same event. I don't know if I buy this but it is a thought worth considering.

That's an interesting premise It might also explain why in the 'Mirrors of the Wheel' worlds TDO is always imprisoned.

It is the only last battle that should be. But the human race is foolish, and will unseal the bore again. When that happens, the dragon must once more be reborn to fight the Dark One and reseal him.

At least, that is what makes the most sense if time is a wheel.

And it's not just every cycle, it's every dimension. Perrin glimpsed snake-like people out of the corner of his eye or something (I haven't re-read yet so this is remembered through hazy comprehension at 5:30am after release day as I struggled to stay awake and finish) and wondered if others in other worlds fought the exact same battle.

That's what I'm thinking.

I agree with Ty. Humans will open up the Bore again at some point, perhaps sensing the "seal" Rand built, or just that it's a weaker point in reality. And then it'll start all over again.

Someone should post a sign saying " Do not drill here" outside the bore.

I think some of the people who replied to this thread didn't understand what Dmaasen was actually saying.. <_<

That said- I really like this theory.

Agreed Ninya If I were to use imagery, I would say the Last Battle (if there was only ever one) was at the center of the Wheel. All the events leading up to it happen again and again as the wheel turns, but there is only one center. That center applies to all dimensions, etc.

Keelinnea Isyne said:

Someone should post a sign saying " Do not drill here" outside the bore.

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+1

And I really like the concept of the rose petals and all the times looping back to that one point in timespace, converging into this battle at the center. I visualized Rand's step out of time like a long bar of timespace collectively together, seen from without. But if it's every dimension then yeah, it might bend on itself at beginning and end and you're back to the same place in all dimensions.

This kind of makes for an interesting twisting of the world at the last second.

That makes sense, at least the 'center of the Wheel' part does. The entrance to the Bore seems to be similar to a black hole (at least in the way that it warps time) because Rand is held in stasis in the perspective of anyone outside of the Bore, upon entrance of a black hole, an object seems to freeze in place. If the entrance to the Bore was in fact like a black hole, it seems reasonable that said black hole could warp the pattern to it, forming a central point in the wheel.

Well, since the Remaking itself actually occurs inside the Pattern, that could go differently.... but the theory makes sense for the possibilities-battle Rand and the DO have.

When Rand steps out of the pattern, it is described that he somehow latches himself to it, and that time does have meaning for him again, despite him being out side of time.
This is further supported by the fact that he is seeing the last battle plays out, with specific events happening at the time they do during the battle. If he existed out side of time, there is no reason he wouldn't see the past, present and future as the same thing (like the prophets in ST: DS9).

I kept thinking on it and trying to figure out if the timespace thingy would be like petals on a rose or like a looping horseshoe or whatever.

Then I realized they already told us what it looks like. It's a frickin wheel. A wheel of time.

I think that only the very general concepts stay the same throughout the ages. In the Second Age, everyone's prosperous, but The Dark One is released upon the world. In the Third Age, they defeat The Dark One. I don't think that The Dragon is necessarily integral to this happening. I like to think that there's a bit of maneuverability in The Pattern, because otherwise you're just repeating history over and over again. We simply saw the characters and the story in THIS Third Age, not every Third Age that happens in the history of Randland.

dragon is a title granted to the one who leads the sealing of hte DO presumably, its a temporary title based on someones actions, although it may refer to some other event i think the main point is, maybe the wheel is actualy part of a larger unimaginable contraption so that its moving more then just circularly but in a vast distance, like wheels within wheels or soemthing else perhaps? would allow for steping out of hte pattern multiple times... but the divergence idea is a nice one sort of... distance doesnt matter in the world.... theirs vastness and yet its so small you can hold it in your hand so to speak... i guess i may have been the only one who had a innopropriate reference thought during Rand sealing the DO :/

actualy i sorta wondered briefly what if Cauthon is the creator lol... or egwene :O what if they all are part of hte creator :P

iwas sorta curious what if to every person thier is one perfect turning of the wheel for them or is thier a turning of hte wheel that is bound to occure that is perfect for everyone to share together someday where htey have advanced as a society incredibly far for every age? or is the final age where they grow up and leave the patterned worlds and travel beyond it as something else?

But how would this account for Lews Therin? Unless I'm not understanding this theory correctly.

The Wheel itself could be one of two things. One, it could be one set series of events that replay over and over again, meaning that it would be something like watching the same movie over and over, the same events happen at the same time. We know this isn't the case, since Lews Therin was the previous Dragon before Rand.

So then we assume the Wheel is not a series of identical events occuring again and again, but rather a series of general occurrences, (The Bore opening, The Dragon being born, the Bore sealing) populated with a group of repeating archetypes (The Dragon, mainly, possibly others). Usually the Bore is sealed the right way (the way we saw in the books), but Lews Therin muffed it up. Maybe it was complacency after having such a prosperous civilization, maybe he was just a weak Dragon, either way he didn't do it right, which is why we have the Forsaken, the Dark One's influence, etc. This "screwing everything up" on Lews Therin's part is what made Rand's job so exceptionally tough (and also what made this turning of the wheel worthy of a series of books).

At least that's how I understand things.

I feel that it important to try and move away from the simple image of a "wheel". It tends to dumb down the situation for most people to be more simple that it really is.

RJ put it nicely in my opinion

Interview: Sep 4th, 2005

DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)
Question

At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator? How did they appear in the sky?
Robert Jordan

An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self-correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

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Edit.

also, its always the Dragon Soul who is responsible for sealing the bore, but its possible that someone else besides Rand could be the reborn dragon soul, but that soul would always be the same.

RJ used to put the differences between the turnings of the wheel as the following:

The differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages.

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Oh and there is nothing special about this turning of the wheel

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)
Question

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
Robert Jordan

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

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Apart from Fain of course, he was a unique aberration, but that of course didn't come to anything.


Personally we know the bore is whole at the end of the First Age, partially sealed at the end of the Second Age, and whole at the end of the Third Age.


I've always been curious about ages 4, 5, 6 and 7. And do they have any experiences with the Dark One?

It could be like that (or not at all ;-)

Age 4 : humans rediscover science and live like us
Age 5 : humans travel to other worlds / create marvelous things and terrific weapons / destroy the universe(s) (Big Bang)
Age 6 : (re)creation of the universe(s)
Age 7 : Dinausors and etc.
Age 1 : humanity
...