*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

By that logic, I can claim that Mordeth wasn't truly a separate evil simply because we're only ever told that by various POVs.

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Not correct. Rand learned this because of the dual wounds on his side that repelled eachother, he then used that knowledge to basically push tainted saidin against Shadar Logoth to force the taint out. That was a hypothesis shown to be true through experimentation.

Ah, but what proof do we have of this experimentation? It's only been mentioned from various characters' POVs.

Possible, but unlikely, since Fain himself testifies about it in several of his PoVs. While it's still a PoV, and he could be wrong, he is talking about HIMSELF, while Rand is talking about an outside force, which is very different. Fain sais "I am A." Rand is saying "B is C".

Also - that's not true about RJ. If I understand correctly, we'll not soon enough have an outside, objective, no PoV ancyclopedia which can help answer most of those questions. At least I hope it will.

Okay. How about the existence of trollocs, myrdraal, gholam, grolm, raken and pretty much anything else that doesn't get its own POV?

What about'em?

How do we know they actually exist?

What?
I do not question the existence of physical things that everyone can see, touch, hear and smell. I'm talking about things that are in people's heads, their opinions, their believes, the way they see things.
Choice is not physical. Evil is not physical. The source of evil or a connection between evil and choice isn't physical.

Okay. Prove to me that the voice Rand hears is actually Lews Therin. Prove that the Dark One exists at all. Or the Creator. Prove that the taint was truly cleansed. None of these things are physical.

Zimone Zarasri said:

I think the OP was still divided into saidar and saidin, but those weren't further divided into Spirit, Air, Water, Fire and Earth.

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I think it does say that the One Power became one... that saidin and saidar were no longer divided. But what exactly did he DO with it to seal the Bore? It's been bugging me.

No, they weren't. And LTT's voice WAS an interpretation. Rand said so himself, in ToM. He said it was part of his madness. So, was it real? Or part of the madness? Or was it both real and effected by the madness?
The Taint is simple, since every man who can channel felt it's cleansing, even those who didn't know Rand was going to do it. There for they had no reason to suddenly decide the Taint was cleansed. The fact that all men who could channel felt the same, no matter the PoV, is enough, at least to me.
As for the Creator and the DO - I don't know if the creator exists. I already said, so far as I'm concerned his MIA, so it doesn't really matter. The DO probably exists, though I suppose his form and such might depend on people's perception of him. You know this, too, because different PoVs of different people (which basically have no reason to interpret it the same) felt the same thing, with the same booming voice, etc.

I'm honestly not sure what the problem is. Every theory accepts some things at face value, but argues about other things. Going back now to everything basically agreed to by most people and trying to look at everything as a PoV would take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more time then I have, but I think we can both agree that many things in the series has been confirmed by different people, which except for it being true at face value would have had no reason to see it the same from different PoVs.
My problem here is that we only have one PoV at the end, Rand's, which himself was wrong from the start [he said he couldn't defeat, let alone kill, the DO, both of which turned out to be wrong (assuming he indeed chose not to kill him in the end, meaning he thought he could have, at least)]. That's just not something I can accept at point value.

BTW - I'm not sure about the "no PoV" for trollocs thing. For example, during TGH, there is a scene after Fain killed the Myrdral that he sees the trollocs as being afraid of him. That's his interpretation by their reaction, but even if we question that, we have no reason to question the fact that all the humans and trollocs with him saw him kill the myrdral, especially when later other people see the dead myrdral too.

AnAnonymousWOTFan said:

I think it does say that the One Power became one... that saidin and saidar were no longer divided. But what exactly did he DO with it to seal the Bore? It's been bugging me.

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I think that mention was for the purpose of the prophecy about the 3 becomming one at the end. It didn't mean they actually became one power, just that, since he was in a circle, he could weave all 3 powers as one and use them all to seal the bore.

I think the three becoming one was more like the 3 different powers being woven together to become one seal on the Bore.

Aulrick Vendour said:

I think that mention was for the purpose of the prophecy about the 3 becomming one at the end. It didn't mean they actually became one power, just that, since he was in a circle, he could weave all 3 powers as one and use them all to seal the bore.

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Well, it does say that saidin and saidar became this sort of "Light Power", I think.

I was puzzled by the impossible pipe more than anything else in the book. One thing that ocurred to me is that he is in Tel'aran'rhiod. That is the place where you can alter reality by thinking it is so. So Rand is not in the real world when he leaves in Moridin's body. He's in the world of dreams or the wolf dream like hopper was after he died.

Its also possible that he might be in one of the Mirrors of the wheel, which diverged from the main world after the Last Battle happened. That Mirror could be close enough to have the people, and maybe is closer to TAR so that the thinking ability is present, etc...

ok i has a simple response, killing the dark one would be like removing saidar or saidin, he is so small insignificant yet so vast ast the same time as rand said, he has conscious much like mashadar perhaps? perhaps mashadar was a hint of what dark one is or could be, and that if you remove the shadow its like removing the grease from the cogs of a machine, its speed slows, it slowly chips and eventual it stops turning, which could be a good thing or a bad thing.. who knows maybe the age where it stops turning would be paradise...

but whos to say life is about paradise, or contentment, or being happy or full. Maybe it is about experiencing adventure, or pain as much as happiness, maybe without balance of a world view we lose purpose and even good looses its taste that everything becomes a bland vanilla regardless of how fancy or exotic it is. Buuut mostly i think it would unbalance the one power which spins the wheel... as for rand he is a dreamer i think except his dream power is in the real world, he is a hero of the horn, the chosen champion, and hes experienced things other may not.

Rand has strange powers that seem unexplained and unique to him similar to dreamers, then again if perrins a hint it may be that in time others and others will start to gain similar powers in future ages since someone made the portal stones without the one power presumably. Oh plus i think Rand can use the one power sort of but he cant channel it into himself i think he can just command stuff around him as if its a dream... it actually adds a real weird layer to the story and washes back to other comments like the aiel saying that they were part of rands dream and when he wakes they will end or something... or the others like masema who say stuff about this and that maybe that's part of the story's end you don't know if hes dreaming or if its all real and amazing

p.s. i jsut read the comment above me and it appears others have already suggested the telerenriod link :P

and the whole possibly dead or some wierd dream thing :/

Is it just me or...

I think Robert Jordan tried to incorporate a lot of religions' belief systems into this series. Here, Rand acts like Christianity's Jesus claiming that his blood supposedly is needed to help humanity. Dark one's name Shaytan comes from the religion of Islam, where his name is Shaytan. Tinkers kind of look like that they come from India. Ayeel are some sort of Japanese samurai.

Overall, I was happy with ending, but NOT happy with the way Rand battled in shayol gul. Lewis Therin had 113 male channellers with him at shayol gul while rand had Moiraine and Nynaeve. Besides Moridin was ALONE!!!

As for the "impossible pipe"... he's clearly not holding onto any sort of Power, so that rules the OP, saidin or saidar out. The Bore has been closed, so I don't think it's something with Tel'aran'rhoid, as that was mentioned as moving closer to the real world as the DO's influenced increased. The only theory that makes sense is that Rand still has an influence over the Pattern, perhaps as a result of seeing how it works in the possibilities battle.

Murgabi said:

Is it just me or...

I think Robert Jordan tried to incorporate a lot of religions' belief systems into this series. Here, Rand acts like Christianity's Jesus claiming that his blood supposedly is needed to help humanity. Dark one's name Shaytan comes from the religion of Islam, where his name is Shaytan. Tinkers kind of look like that they come from India. Ayeel are some sort of Japanese samurai.

Overall, I was happy with ending, but NOT happy with the way Rand battled in shayol gul. Lewis Therin had 113 male channellers with him at shayol gul while rand had Moiraine and Nynaeve. Besides Moridin was ALONE!!!

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Rand appears to be way stronger in the Power than Lews Therin. He had saidar, which when combined with saidin can create a LOT more powerful effects than saidin or saidar on their own. He also had the TP, and didn't have to divert some of saidin to holding back the DO.

.... during hte assualt i imagine they had to deal with alot of freinds of the dark channelers, aka the forsaken but in the hundreds possibly unles they brought a dream spike with them to help reinforce telerenriod then you have to deal with the repercussions of a different age having that whole area filled iwth unimagineable defenses