*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

You know, I liked the ending. The Wheel of Time series has been mostly about balance. The concept of balance made it's way into a lot of areas of the series (not just Light vs. Dark). Women's Circle & Village Council, Saidar & Saidin, Lan & Nynaeve's marriage, etc. So if the Dark One was killed it would upset balance.

Reading between the lines i always took it that Loial was the scholar who's 'perspective' that WoT was written from. Afterall he had his book to write.

I thought that, too Cair.

Either it was Loial's book or one of Thom's tales.

As far as the impossible pipe goes, I think that the dragon has always been one of five things that can stand outside the pattern. The Creator, TDO, TAR and TDO's champion being the other four. You'll notice that Lanfear, (who I believe was TDO's champion) had the ability to do many things that no one else could, including things in TAR. My theory on the pipe is that now the Dragon has been actualized, by existing outside the pattern for some time, and gained the ability to manipulate the pattern a la TAR. Where else can you do things with a thought?

Yes!

TAR was my initial reaction.

But it didn't make sense. So I think you could be right about his existing outside the pattern now.

So let me throw this out there... I've been chewing on it awhile.

What if there is no Creator? And what if there is no Dark One? Just because the good folk of Randland anthropomorphize the dual nature of existence... that absolutely doesn't mean that they represent actual conscious entities. Allow me to present some arguments for your consideration.

a) Taoism. Ying and Yang absofrickinglutely everywhere. Black and white, male and female, cats and dogs, being and non-being, one cannot exist without the other. Opposites define one another. And while religious Taoism has as many entities as any other polytheistic practice, philosophical Taoism does not. Things simply are. I'm not saying that this = that. But clearly philosophical Taoism had a profound effect on the world creation. Yes, so did most other religions and philosophies (not the least of which manifested itself as the name-sake of the series). I'm just pointing this one out, because...

b) We never meet the Creator, we never hear (with certainty) the Creator, we see no evidence of the Creator. Yes, you may argue that the Creator spoke to Rand at the beginning of the series, but nothing ever supported that idea except our own ideas of what should classify that voice as good or evil. Things grow and change, yes. But that doesn't mean a conscious entity has to make that happen. And on the flip side...

c) We never meet the Dark One in a way that convinces me. Not really. Characters hear him. Shadar Haran seems to be a sort of avatar for him. But there is nothing the Dark One did that convinces me it is conscious or has a will. I think the DO makes just as much sense if it is understood as the destructive nature of things, the existence of our fears, our disappointments, our sense of futility. Conversations with the Dark One make just as much sense to me if they are manifestations of humanity's inner conflict and its difficulty with reconciling that creation doesn't exist without destruction. And in a world where "spirit" can be manifested and by talented people and used in their physical environment, if some people can touch threads in the pattern, why might not they also have the ability to effect the warp and weave?

d) Seriously though, Rand and the Dark One. We never see the Dark One. You and I both know that there is no way that Rand literally held an Anti-Creator in the palm of it hand any more than Rand literally held the world in his hand. We're told, over and over, that this is what his brain sees and hears because it has to put the experience into some sort of understandable context. So why wouldn't the D.O's voice be a similar experience and be an attempt of Rand's brain to understand the duality of nature in existence and in himself?

e) Rand is stupid-powerful. He can see the pattern, touch the pattern, manipulate the warp and weave of the pattern. This whole story is his journey from moving to seeing what really is vs. what he thinks should be. I don't know about you, but having a person who can do change the pattern but who doesn't understand that both the warp and weave are needed? That would be about as dangerous as something could be in this world. Pick one and the whole pattern falls apart. We don't need an epic battle between creative and destructive supernatural forces. Rand's inner battle is plenty dangerous enough.

f) Moridin still baffles me a bit with the whole body swap, but I understand a few things. And as clunky as it seems to me, he has to be a metaphor. He's the anti-Rand in a way that gets more and more literal until they physically become the same being. I don't think it mattered which body they took out of Shayol Ghul. I think they just went with the one that was in better health and had both hands because well.... horray hands.

g) Many times in this last battle, especially when we see things from the PoV of enlightened characters, the cracks in the earth and the nature of the D.O. is nothingness.

h) "'YOU REALLY ARE NOTHING,' said Rand finally understanding the Dark One's secrets." :P

i) Once Rand becomes enlightened through understanding the nature of things (and that we cannot control the nature of things without screwing them up) - ta daa we're done. He isn't stuck to a particular body, the limitations of the physical world don't apply to him any more (thus the impossible pipe), and off he goes to be an unremarkable (but presumably happy) being who is going out into the world to enjoy it for what it is.

j) Rand and Lews Therin already gave us a solid basis for hearing a character (the same character) have a discussion with themselves. We find out, straight out, that Lews Therin are one soul - one and the same. Rand might have been talking to himself, but he was never talking to anyone but Rand.

So that's what I think it is. No Creator, no Dark One, just mankind attempting to understand the nature of the universe around them and the dangers that come from having the capability to chose and to change.

That's plausible also

What is kind of funny is that I was totally not convinced of that as I pulled the post together. I was throwing it out there to see if I could make it stick for me. I kinda like it.

But what of the true power then? It is clearly stated that access to the true power is GRANTED, meaning a willing act. It can also be taken away, suggesting that it's not just an understanding of one's nature that can get you access...

Eleyan Al'Landerin said:

d) Seriously though, Rand and the Dark One. We never see the Dark One. You and I both know that there is no way that Rand literally held an Anti-Creator in the palm of it hand any more than Rand literally held the world in his hand.

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Rand is inside the Pattern when he holds the Dark One. I believe it.

Aulrick Vendour said:

But what of the true power then? It is clearly stated that access to the true power is GRANTED, meaning a willing act. It can also be taken away, suggesting that it's not just an understanding of one's nature that can get you access...

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Its entirely possible that the Chosen built that structure in their heads - 'I did something good, I should get access' or 'I'm the only one left, I should get access' or 'so and so said I did good, and has given me access'. TDO certainly never 'granted' Rand access. Rand took it. Which means it can be taken without any kind of permission. If one is powerful enough...

Hammar O'Justice said:

Someone's been reading their Silmarillion. Tolkien used this exact metaphor.

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I have read the Silmarillion, but actually I'm just a musician, which is why this explanation was the first to pop into my head.

Robert Jordan has also discussed the intelligence and motivations of the Dark One, a little bit.

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.

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Week 1 Question: The Dark One has promised his followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return. In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in his own image?

Robert Jordan Answers: That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One? You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their parts-just check out the nightly news for confirmation-and at the root, that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends. Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all, he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.

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Sorcha Al'Verdan said:

Its entirely possible that the Chosen built that structure in their heads - 'I did something good, I should get access' or 'I'm the only one left, I should get access' or 'so and so said I did good, and has given me access'. TDO certainly never 'granted' Rand access. Rand took it. Which means it can be taken without any kind of permission. If one is powerful enough...

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No he definitely granted it to Rand. Using the True Power has bad effects on the mind of those who wield it.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the DO is not the source of all evil, and we have already been shown that with Shadar Logoth and Mashadar. They were also evil, but completely opposed to the evil from the DO, and without those opposing evils Rand would not have been able to cleanse saidin. So a part of me wants to say that yes, the DO did trick Rand, because evil can and will exist without the DO.

The Dark One exists, guys. It's established. :P

Wow PAladin
I think you're the only person who agrees with me :P
And I didn't even THINK about the Shadar Logoth Evil, which is again a perfect example (unless someone thinks that the DO will create evil which it itself is volnurable to?).

But the Shadar Logoth evil was created because of the DO, had there been no DO Shadar Logoth might still be a flowering town, so basically he's the source of that evil too.

I suppose that would depend on how you define source, then. He was the REASON that evil existed, not the source of it.
For example, if a poor man steals something, the reason he is stealing is because he's poor, but that's not the source of the evil behind the act of stealing.
I like your line of thinking though :P Makes me think harder on my theories. Still do believe this one.

How are you establishing that Shadar Logoth was created because of the DO? What evidence is there for that?