Things you liked, or didn't [WHOLE BOOK SPOILERS]

I think the last time Elayne was hanging around the White Tower and there was no battle going on, the Tower was still divided and the Salidar Aes Sedai didn't have the Oath Rod. She was informed by Egwene that she would be taking as soon as there was time, or give up her ring.

You know, something else that surprised me was the extensive use of Balefire during the last battle. I assume the DO's goal hasn't changed between the wars, so why did it now want to weaken the pattern, but he didn't want it last time and they stopped using it? I was amazed that it was used so easily during the last battle.

Elayne has not taken the oaths, because they don't know how they will affect her babies. She will be expected to take them after her babies is born though...

Daerlyn Inagh said:

She did; I just mean there wasn't a lot of wiggle room. Aes Sedai take the oaths. No oaths, no more Aes Sedai.

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That isn't true. The ancient Aes Sedai had no Oaths. They changed - they could change again.

Also, the whole point is that people are supposed to trust them not to abuse their power. I mean, the most important Oaths are those about not using it as a weapon. Everyone knows that Aes Sedai always twist the oath about not lying to the point that they barely believe an Aes Sedai when she's actually being blatantly clear.

However, the relevance of the Oaths will most certainly be affected by the Black Tower. I highly doubt the Aes Sedai will convince them to take Oaths and cut their lives in half. And if male channelers run around without Oaths ... well, if there's competition between the Towers, the White Tower will be at a disadvantage. And if they start cooperating, if the Black Tower gains the trust of the common people ... then they've proven that channelers don't have to swear Oaths.

There will also be a lot of other channelers roaming the world now, what with the Aiel Wise Ones and channelers from other cultures. The Oaths won't matter as much, since they're only chaining a small portion of all channelers.

The White Tower will most likely have to change and rebuilt immediately, considering the huge losses they suffered during the Last Battle. There's no going back to how things were before.

It's also known that Aes Sedai can be darkfriends. That's out there, now. That will also undermine the importance of the Oaths - why take an Aes Sedai at her word, if there's still a slight chance that she might be lying because she's a darkfriend? An Aes Sedai's alleigence to the Light can be questioned now, in a way it couldn't before.

That reminds me, I did like how Logain gave up his hope of getting the sceptre but went to save the common people at the ruins. And the fact that the commoners there now saw channelling as a Talent, not a curse. Also that Logain talks of the Black Tower being protectors, always. Not a lot of people liked Logain but I did and I'm glad that he finally gets to throw away his arrogance and glory hunting past and become a proper hero. Yay for Logain!

Also the Asha'man do not take the oaths

Tazren Gaidin, your speculation raises a lot of interesting points that I think deserve their own thread to discuss fully. As it stands, the discussion had in the books by Egwene and Elayne stated that despite the drawbacks, Egwene felt that the Three Oaths were integral to what it means to be an Aes Sedai in the current age. Given Cadsuane's opinion on Nynaeve before she's raised fully and holds the Oath Rod, that's not likely to change as long as Cadsuane is Amyrlin.

Having said that though the current age just finished. It's now the 4th Age so who's to say that things are different and also Cadsuane had shown on several occasions that she was hardly adverse to pushing the rules. And as Toral says, the Asha'man take no oaths and the people that they saved at the end do not look upon them any the worse for it. Maybe that feeling spreads among the rest of the peoples?

The thing which surprised me about Cadsuane being offered Amyrlin is her age. I know it's considered rude to talk about it, but it has frequently been mentioned that most sisters believed her dead already, because of how old she is. She herself had intimated a few times that she was pretty much hanging on for The Last Battle, and from what I remember, she's pretty much at the upper age limit for most Aes Sedai who have taken the Oaths. So what, will she take the Amyrlin Seat only to die soon after? Or will pragmatism rule and she will get rid of the Oaths (as they are impractical as has been evidenced by the series) and live long enough to do some good?

Likes:
Mat's strategies, and Mat in general. I still don't feel that Sanderson ever got the knack of writing him quite right, but he was better in this book than the previous two. His use of Hinderstap was brilliant, and I loved that whole section - the use of Grady's POV was fab.
Everything to do with the Horn - Olver, Jain/Noam, Birgitte, everything
Rand riding off into the sunset
Min being a Truthspeaker and exposing the spy.
Perrin killing Lanfear. In fact, Perrin in general, though I did feel that the hunt for Slayer went on a bit long.
The Forsaken in this book being evil and effective. Loved their schemes, loved it all.
Shara. We'd heard so much about it, in snippets, but it was always seen to be "Oh well, it's academic, just for info..." And then they appear. Awesome stuff, and I didn't see it coming.
The Red Aiel. At first I was a bit "Oh, wtf, the anti-Aiel, jee..." but then somehow the explanation of who they were really sat well with me.
Seeing Elaida as a damane. Karma, biotch!
Androl. Everything he does, all his plots, they are fantastic. His relationship/double bond with Pevara is wonderful, and I really liked seeing Pevara continue to be used as she's a great character.
Gateways finally being used to their full potential. Somewhat tied up to my like of Androl, but Yukiri does it too.
Logain choosing protection over power, and finding the glory Min viewed

Dislikes:
He killed Bela. Just not right
Gawyn. Just in general. I've not liked him for quite a while, and this book did nothing to change that.
Siuan/Bryne dying. I understand why it was necessary, how it was a Viewing, etc etc... but I still don't like it. I suppose life isn't "Fair" but that seemed particularly sad for some reason.
Tam not knowing that Rand was alive. OK ok, so a secret becomes more and more in danger of being let out the more people who know, but he's all alone now and I found that sad.
It never really being explained how Faile et al ended up in The Blight (unless I missed something, and it's possible as I read the book in about 10 hours or thereabouts, so it's possible!). I know there was this "the AS was a darkfriend, and was killed by a knife not a spike" theory, but was it expanded any further?
Egwene dying. Again, I understand the plot, I get why it was necessary, I think it was beautifully written, etc etc. But she was one of my favourite characters, and I just feel sad that she didn't make it

I'm sure I'll think of more. I was quite "grr, not sure I liked that" about the book to my husband at 1am when I finished it, but somehow today I find myself liking more than I dislike

Likes that haven't been mentioned (I think):
-I really really liked that there wasn't an extended epilogue. I hated the Harry Potter epilogue, because it put an end to any speculation about what the characters might have done, and I liked that ability to imagine.
-I liked Leilwyn's bonding.
-I am not sure I like some of the the mysteries at the end, but they are satisfying to chew on. How did Egwene know to watch for the light? Who was the old Aiel woman?

Dislikes that I agree with:
-There were scenes I would have liked to see. I think Egwene & Gawyn's wedding would have shown more of Egwene and less Amyrlin, and would have also let us care more about Gawyn. There could have been another paragraph or two that let us see Mat realizing that he had the power to kill Fain & Co., etc.
-Min, Aviendha, and Elayne could have done at least a little bit of acting. We see them agreeing to convince everyone that Rand is dead, but we didn't get to see any of the convincing.

Ealandrelle, I think that Faile ending up in the Blight was meant to be another mystery. The AS opened a gateway directly to the Blight, and the bubble of evil made it impossible to do anything but go through it--amazing coincidence, or clever plan? It's possible the AS was Black Ajah, since it's highly unlikely that a gateway could be misdirected by disrupting the AS weaving it. I believe they said it was more likely for it to explode or collapse. Since one of Faile's guard (Cha Faile) was later revealed to be a Darkfriend, it is likely that the guard is the one who stabbed the AS, seeing an opportunity to cut Faile and the Horn off from all possible rescue. I think it's possible that the AS was Black Ajah and purposely opened a gate to the Blight when there was an opportunity, that the AS was not Black Ajah, and the attack itself disrupted her weave in a previously unheard-of way, or that the bubble of evil influenced her weave, regardless of whether or not she was Black Ajah. I'm leaning towards the last possiblity.

Marlinya Nedruine said:

Ealandrelle, I think that Faile ending up in the Blight was meant to be another mystery. The AS opened a gateway directly to the Blight, and the bubble of evil made it impossible to do anything but go through it--amazing coincidence, or clever plan? It's possible the AS was Black Ajah, since it's highly unlikely that a gateway could be misdirected by disrupting the AS weaving it. I believe they said it was more likely for it to explode or collapse. Since one of Faile's guard (Cha Faile) was later revealed to be a Darkfriend, it is likely that the guard is the one who stabbed the AS, seeing an opportunity to cut Faile and the Horn off from all possible rescue. I think it's possible that the AS was Black Ajah and purposely opened a gate to the Blight when there was an opportunity, that the AS was not Black Ajah, and the attack itself disrupted her weave in a previously unheard-of way, or that the bubble of evil influenced her weave, regardless of whether or not she was Black Ajah. I'm leaning towards the last possiblity.

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Now that you've said this, Marlinya Sedai, I agree that this is quite likely. We know from Verin talking to Mat that a stray thought can influence the location of a Gateway. I can imagine that someone who is suddenly faced with a bubble of evil would be thinking of the DO/comparing it to something that might happen in the Blight, and that could be all it takes for the destination to change.

Toral Delvar said:

"She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to, more than was right. Far beyond safety, beyond wisdom. This Sa'angreal had no buffer to prevent this."

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She burned out by choice, knowing that she was burning out. Perhaps she did something to circumvent the buffer deliberately, rather than, say, get caught up in fighting or trying a new weave and draw too much.

Ealandrelle said:

The thing which surprised me about Cadsuane being offered Amyrlin is her age. I know it's considered rude to talk about it, but it has frequently been mentioned that most sisters believed her dead already, because of how old she is. She herself had intimated a few times that she was pretty much hanging on for The Last Battle, and from what I remember, she's pretty much at the upper age limit for most Aes Sedai who have taken the Oaths. So what, will she take the Amyrlin Seat only to die soon after? Or will pragmatism rule and she will get rid of the Oaths (as they are impractical as has been evidenced by the series) and live long enough to do some good?

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I feel like Cadsuane might have been chosen in part *because* of her age. She's both a maverick, and someone who understands the reasons for the AS traditions. If they end up keeping the Three Oaths, then she'll be a "transitional" Amyrlin to guide them through other inevitable changes (such as knowingly sharing the world with non-AS channellers, including Asha'man). If the Oaths get ditched, a possibility that Sitters may not be considering, she's going to have to adjust as much as anyone else. In any event, she's spent a lot of time away from the Tower, and is clearly more willing than most to cooperate with everyone.

I'm thinking of the Catholic popes here; there's a "tradition" that after a long papacy, you have an older pope like Benedict XVI to provide a transition before you pick the person you want leading for decades. Siuan had a short reign, and Elaida and Egwene shorter, but there's been enough changes in a short time that the same sort of situation might apply; the Hall may not feel ready to choose someone to lead them for centuries.

The Blue feel cheated and hurt enough by Siuan's ousting that almost all (all?) of them ran out to Salidar just a couple years ago. Choosing a transitional Amyrlin from the Blue is in a sense a peace offering. Cadsuane isn't partisan, or really divisive along the usual Red/Blue lines; she's hunted male channelers more successfully than any Red, IIRC. Did Egwene tell anyone that she planned to choose the Green? If so, they might feel "cheated" too, and Cadsuane has had an active role in fighting the Shadow; she can relate to them as well.

[EDIT: It was pointed out to me that Cadsuane is of the Green Ajah; I acknowledge the mistake, but am keeping the previous paragraph as it was for clarity. A lot of the reasoning still applies, since as a Green Cadsuane isn't of either the Blue or Red Ajah, and neither can feel slighted by her selection.]

Cadsuane is a Green.

Cadsuane's rule will probably be very short, and I think everyone, herself included, know that. Most Aes Sedai, certainly the Sitters, know of her age. But the only thing she has to do is provide a strong leadership for a few years, until the world has stabilized again.

I don't think forswearing the Oaths would save her, since she's already aged almost to the point of death.

Tazren has a good point. I also feel that Caduane will be an interim Amyrlin. She is going to be the stabilizing force as the White Tower rebuilds itself and the world learns to deal with all the changes that have come to it in the past couple years. I see her continuing most of what Egwene set down in her short rule, maybe adding a few things with dealing with the other channeling factors out there. (Wise Ones, Ashaman, etc)

Raam Sho'am said:

Cadsuane is a Green.

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I should at least have checked a wiki on that. Thanks.

Tazren Talamar said:

Cadsuane's rule will probably be very short, and I think everyone, herself included, know that. Most Aes Sedai, certainly the Sitters, know of her age. But the only thing she has to do is provide a strong leadership for a few years, until the world has stabilized again.

I don't think forswearing the Oaths would save her, since she's already aged almost to the point of death.

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Has she aged, per se? We have seen very old Aes Sedai like Verin and Cadsuane herself ride around the country on horseback, and sleep rough. They sometimes mention feeling their age, but not to the extent of (say) walking with a stick or even having trouble keeping up with younger traveling companions. It's also mentioned that grey hair is a sign of truly extreme age. All of this makes me think that they've really only aged into the equivalent of their fifties at most. The Oath Rod doesn't cause faster aging; it limits maximum lifespan.

Ealandrelle said:

Seeing Elaida as a damane. Karma, biotch!

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I totally overlooked this. Where?