New Stuff Found upon Re-read

Kitan Tataru

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Yeah, I thought that maybe the TP would be involved in the sealing. Gotta find a way to touch the DO without risking him tainting saidin AND saidar. Then everybody would be screwed.
 
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Actually the reason I think it's accurate is because of what the TP does to the pattern. If they try and touch the DO with the One Power he can Taint or Destroy it. However if the sealing weave includes a Push Back against the DO to clear the bore, one made from the True Power, then the Dark One can't escape it nor can he undo it as his power would undo a weave of the One Power. Lewis Therin in one of his mad rambling said that Something Has to Touch the Dark One in the process of sealing him away.

Gundam, I think alot of us thought that the true power would somehow need to be utilized to touch the Dark One. However; your theory brings something new that I never considered. I never thought that Callandor could be a sa'angreal amplifying the True Power while a normal sa'angreal could not amplify the True Power. I think you really struck on something there. Other angreals or sa'angreals never seemed to amplify the madness like Callandor did. Good idea.
 
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Axis can correct me, but I was under the impression the DO could taint Saidin only BECAUSE Saidar was not used. If both powers are used they are strong enough to prevent a taint...

As for the TP - it sounds silly to me (no offense). The DO is giving access to the TP. He doesn't need to taint it, he can simply prevent access if someone trys to use it to seal him... This theory makes no sense.
 

Kitan Tataru

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If Rand is drawing on enough of the TP through Callandor and the DO doesn't anticipate it beforehand, maybe the DO won't be able to cut him off while he's still drawing on it so strongly.

(think how pretty much nobody could have cut Egwene off when she was defending the Tower against the Seanchan while using the sa'angreal and linked to several novices/Accepted)
 
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How is that even remotely the same? While it's true that it's difficult to shield someone already holding a lot of the power, the DO doesn't need to shield Rand. No one is GIVING Egwene access to the one power, she draws on it. In order to gain access to the TP, the DO must GIVE such access.
 
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Right, but the DO isn't all-knowing. Therefore, he might not realize that Rand has access to the TP. It's just like if he was a person ... if person A stays away from person B, person B can't touch A; if person A is next to person B, and B grabs A ... then you've got to yank hard to make them release their grasp.
 
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But again, that makes no sense...
The DO GRANTS people the ability to use the TP... Has he NOT NOTICED that HE GAVE Rand this ability?
My guess is Rand's touching of the TP was a one time deal, probably through Moridin. My guess is by the time Rand get's to the DO, Moridin will be long dead, so that road would be blocked. And I doubt the DO will GRANT Rand the ability himself...

In other words, it makes no sense that Rand could use the TP to seal the bore, or to use it "before the DO notices," or anything of the sorts... It just makes no sense!

I'll say what I've said several times already - while Aes Sedai in the books keep saying how obscure the prophecies are, how it can't be taken at face value, etc., we keep saying that most of the prophecies are basically EXACTLY what is written.
Now, while Calandur isn't part of the prophecies, per say (if I remember correctly), I see no reason for it to be any different. Calandur requires 2 women and 1 man in a circle, that's 3. The prophecies say 3 will become as 1. Makes perfect sense.

There are all types of 3s in these books, so are we going to try and apply the prophecy to each of them now? Ramd, Fain and Moridin, 3 types of powers. The 3 women in love with Rand, maybe they'll all be together :-)waggle). Rand, Perrin and Mat, whom we know should be together at the end, as per Min's viewing...
Do we really want to start just throwing each 3 things in these books together and see what comes out?

If anything, I find that Rand, Perrin and Mat being the 3 the prophecy spoke of much more plausible then the TP being involved. Especially since the colors swirling when they think of each other, and being able to almost see each other each time that happens.
 
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Also - forget sealing the bore. This is to be THE last battle. Not A last battle. I've talked of this before. If these books end with Rand simply fixing the bore 'till the next time, I'd be very disapointed.
Mark my words, at the end of this book, Rand will use Fain to kill the DO for good, somehow.
 
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Rand's access to the TP was through Moridin. The only reason that wouldn't still work is if the DO realized this and has a way to block it (which I don't think is the case) or if Moridin were to die (and we don't know what that would do to Rand considering their link). I do agree that the three becoming one could be just the three people needed to correctly use Callandor, or any number of things ... but knowing RJ it could be all of those things at once.
 
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Possibly... Though I can't seem to remember Rand even being aware of WHAT exactly happened when he used the TP. For sure he's not just able to use it again at will. I think we would have noticed that.
 
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Possibly... Though I can't seem to remember Rand even being aware of WHAT exactly happened when he used the TP. For sure he's not just able to use it again at will. I think we would have noticed that.

Aulrick, a lot of stuff you post sound silly to us (like the Dark One dying and this being the LAST battle instead of A last battle). But we don't make fun of you for that, or at least I don't. Please be a little nicer even if you don't agree.
 

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Tehmpus, I can appreciate your sentiment about Aulrick's posting style being not nice in your taste. If you'd like to report a post then please use the report function for each post with which you have concern. The function is the triangle with the exclamation point in the far left bottom of the post underneath the poster's name. The book forum moderators will be more than happy to review complaints. That said, I think Aulrick's posting style is just very matter-of-fact and I will not call him out in public as a moderator. I will be happy to review any posts brought to moderator attention through proper channels though so that such matters are handled privately. Thanks in advance for your understanding.

Now that the mod stuff is out of the way, let me disagree a bit with you, Aulrick. Rand has proven to have an exceptional memory, not just LT's memories, & my money is on him being able to use the TP again. The temptation to do so must be terrible & I do wonder if he will succumb at some point. Just because he hasn't done so yet doesn't mean that he won't.
 
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Tehmpus - I'm not sure what in my post you took as making fun of someone, but sorry about that. I didn't make fun at anyone, at least not deliberately. I was just saying how silly this sounds to me.

As for Rand using the TP: We've had plenty of Rand's point of view chapters since that incident... I don't think it's that he doesn't REMEMBER using the TP, rather that he doesn't UNDERSTAND what the TP is, nor HOW to gain access to it. You must remember that when he did the one time, he was in such great distress that he didn't know WHAT it is he was doing.
That's also true about the temptation. We've had plenty or Rand episodes, and this struggle against temptation to use the TP has never been mentioned...

If anything, I'd say that what makes Rand's future use of the TP likely is that Jordan rarely uses such a thing once. We've seen it with the struggle between Shadar Logoth's evil and the shadow, healing Rand after Fain's attack, and then used to cleanse Saidin. Therefor a more likely argument for me is that Jordan would not have put this one thing in just that once. He did it to hint that Rand CAN use the TP and it will happen in a more significant way in the Future.

But I still don't like that theory about Callandur. It makes little sense to me and is full of holes, especialyl about the DO "not noticing" Rand using the TP 'till it's too late.

Tehmpus - my theories are usually not based on book facts, as much as writing style things, which is why you find them so strange. Like what I said about Jordan usually using such things more then once - that's a writing style issue. The same for THE last battle. It's not so much what is said in the books, as much as the style in which it is written that gives me hints. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. I try to make it as much go with the facts in the books as possible.
 
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But Tehmpus, he does understand what the TP is. He didn't when he first touched it, but soon thereafter: "Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It's HIM!" If Rand didn't get what he meant by that ... or why Semirhage asked why the Great Lord betrayed her ... or how it's some force that's not Saidin or Saidar but seemingly stronger than both after living the life of the original Aiel ... he is a complete idiot. I will agree that it's unlikely he'd know how to use it again since it seems directly related to something someone else did, rather than him grasping for it himself. I mean both theories make sense, I'm just saying there's validity to this new one and I'm inclined to continue speculation on it.
 
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Honestly, and unrelated to anything said earlier, I can't imagine zen Rand even contemplating using it, even if he understand what it is.
I agree he understand SOMETHING happened, related to the DO. But I doubt he understood the exact nature of it, or how to replicate it.
 

Kitan Tataru

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and this struggle against temptation to use the TP has never been mentioned...
Actually, it has...that's why Rand carried the male access key around with him all the time until he finally destroyed it atop Dragonmount. With the temptation of the TP on one and and the temptation of the Choden Kal on the other he had the ability to resist both. If he only had one temptation or the other he wouldn't have been able to restrain himself.
 

Kitan Tataru

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TGS, chapter 29, Into Bandar Eban:

Rand carried the access key with him for a reason. It linked him to one of the greatest sa'angreal ever created. With that power and the aid of Nynaeve, Rand had cleansed saidin. The access key had allowed him to tap an unimaginable river, a tempest as vast as the ocean. It had been the greatest thing he had ever experienced.

Until the moment when he had used the unnamed power.

That other force called to him, sang to him, tempted him. So much power, so much divine wonder. But it terrified him. He didn't dare touch it, not again.
And so he carried the key. He was not certain which of the two sources of energy was more dangerous, but as long as both called to him, he was able to resist both. Like two people, both yelling for his attention, they drowned one another out. For the moment.

Then he carries it with him until he destroys it.

TGS, chapter 31, A Promise to Lews Therin:

He passed Aiel camped outside, dismounted at the stables and transferred the access key from its loop on his saddle to the oversized pocket of his coat-more of a pouch, buttoned into his coat-designed for the statuette. The hand holding its globe aloft reached out of its depths.

Rand sat on the throne, despite its gaudiness, shifting so that the access key in his pocket didn't jab him in the side.

Rand's anger surged. He spun, pointing at her. "Would you end up exiled like Cadsuane, Nynaeve?" he bellowed. "I will not be played with! I am done with that. Give advice when it is asked for, and the rest of the time do not patronize me!"


She recoiled, and Rand gritted his teeth, forcing the anger back down. His lowered his hand, but realized it had begun to reach reflexively for the access key in the pocket at his side. Nynaeve's eyes fixed on it, opening wide, and he slowly forced his hand away from the statuette.

He destroyed Nattin's Borrow with it, and then when he's at Far Madding...

Chapter 44, Scents Unknown:

Still staring at the city, he reached to its place on his saddle and removed the statuette of a man holding aloft a globe. Nynaeve felt a sharp chill. Did he have to bring that with him everywhere he went?

Etc.
 
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Interesting. I can't say I remembered that... But I'm still not convinced. In the wuote you brought, Rand sais he's afraid to use the "unnamed power" (which again comes to show he's unaware of what it is exactly, despite LTT's ravings). After he becomes zen Rand, it becomes even more unlikely, since he now has the understanding of everything and strings theory. Especially with his zen attitute, which is all about NOT giving in to the shadow and how it effects people, I can hardly believe he'd use that power again.

Also, the wuote you brought was a little vague for me to understand, so I might as well ask - do you understand it as he feels the TP calling him NOW, or that he remembered how it called him when he used it?

Also 2, do we have anything on this AFTER he became zen Rand?

Also 3, I have yet to hear an explanation as to HOW he'd use it against the DO, when the DO can just block all access to it...

The only scenario I can imagine this is if Rand somehow made it impossible for the DO to block access via Moridin, because for some reason the DO must have Moridin using it at that time, then using it at the same time, knowing the DO can't block it... While I can't imagine such a scenario being implemented, I suppose it is not impossible (as I've already said).

I think without more information as to how this new Rand-Moridin-TP link works, we can't really know for sure.

Another question, and maybe Axis can correct me on this one since I'm not sure, but in order for Callandur to be able to use the TP as well, wouldn't the TP be needed in it's creation? Which means it was created with help from the shadow? I find that VERY hard to believe.
 
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I agree that it's unlikely Zen Rand would be willing to use the TP ... I still think it's possible though depending on the situation and his plans. With your last point about Callandor, I wouldn't be too sure about that Aulrick. I mean, we're never given an explanation on the purpose or making of Callandor aside from that it was made during the War of Power. Therefore, it's totally possible that one of the Forsaken were actually part of the making, and they somehow lost it during the course of the war. I mean, Lanfear knew the power that Callandor held and she was the one that discovered the TP ... who's to say that she didn't have some part in the making? ... and possibly even the warding so that only Lews Therin could draw it again?
 
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