questions about Padan Fain and the origins in the Two Rivers

Ephrem Elpidius

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I was wondering about Padan Fain earlier, after reading ending of book 1 again, Padan claims he was forced to do it by "someone" referring to the Two Rivers and waygates I imagine, I wonder if Padan was corrupted by the same corruption that is found in Mat's dagger? Or do you think he is referring to the Dark One? but in later books the Dark One is clearly fearful of Padan or at least frustrated/annoyed by him.

So who is the one influencing Padan? Or is the madness that takes hold? Padan does seem to genuinely regret his role in hurting Emond's Field though and during the conversation with King Agelmar, he mentioned he was under compulsion and will never be under it again no matter what... if this is indeed the case... can we blame Padan for being evil? something happened to him, from who we don't really know... but from a psychology stand point, his madness can't be tamed and it seems to all stem from the first time he was used by this higher power whatever that may be...

interesting I never noticed this before, I always just felt Padan represented madness in a general sense, someone who made bad choice after bad choice and let greed and envy control him for to long which caused a spiral descent into madness... I don't know why I never realized it may not have been his fault for his descent, compulsion itself can cause madness if used wrongly (I think I remember this from the later books) and if this is indeed the case, do any of us have the right to hate Padan? Instead it should be pity, not saying he shouldn't be put down and out of his misery so he causes no more harm, but not in a vengeful way as the book portrays him.

thoughts? or am I remembering/interpreting all of this wrong?
 

Nadezhda al'Lanahrin

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I am almost certain Padan Fain was possessed by Mordeth. Moiraine describes this in The Great Hunt.

""Padan Fain was the Dark One's creature to the depths of his soul, but I believe that in Shadar Logoth he fell afoul of Mordeth, who was as vile in fighting the Shadow as ever the Shadow itself was. Mordeth tried to consume Fain's soul, to have a human body again, but found a soul that had been touched directly by the Dark One, and what resulted....What resulted was neither Padan Fain nor Mordeth, But something far more evil, a blend of the two."" ~Moiraine to Rand (The Great Hunt, Chapter 49).
 

Alora Sionn

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So basically he was a committed Darkfriend to start, and not a peripheral one either but one that had completely embraced it. Then turned into a full blown, not completely human monster from Mordeth. So I guess you could pity him the same way you can pity anyone who had willingly sold their soul to the devil but it was his choice initially to be touched by the dark one even before Mordeth so I personally can't feel sorry for him lol
 

Alora Sionn

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Double post
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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So basically he was a committed Darkfriend to start, and not a peripheral one either but one that had completely embraced it. Then turned into a full blown, not completely human monster from Mordeth. So I guess you could pity him the same way you can pity anyone who had willingly sold their soul to the devil but it was his choice initially to be touched by the dark one even before Mordeth so I personally can't feel sorry for him lol

that's not entirely true though, at the end of the eye of the world, Padan is compulsed by Moraine to tell her the truth, and he admits that after the Fades and Trollocs placed him in a trolloc soup pot to scare him, and put him on a leash and dragged him, that he was done with the Dark One, and he wanted to escape "as far away as possible so the Dark One would never find him" but since he was under compulsion or some sort of spell, he was forced to still track the three ta'veren.

but during that same compulsion that Moraine does on Padan in King Agelmar's chamber, another truth that comes out is that Padan did want to return to the light, he even mutters it to himself several times, in his madness of confusion.

so yes very bad guy - starts off bad - keeps spiraling due to greed, power, envy - but then gets treated horribly, burned flesh by the Dark One, then tortured by Fades and Trollocs during the initial hunt for the 3 ta'varen, and tries to escape/realizes his mistakes and wants to escape everything - but due to the compulsion is unable to return to the Light

this is why I am confused. how can we paint Padan in a bad way? He wanted to return to the light. he was unable to do so. in fact one might argue that after the madness takes hold, he is no longer a man that can be judged, simply a creature, completely broken no different than a trolloc that is just stitched together.
 

Alora Sionn

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To me wanting to return to the Light after being tortured by the Dark One's creatures strikes me as "oh no you mean that giving my soul to the dark one means more than just using his power to get rich and benefit myself? Well damn looks like I better come to the light"
Sort of like how people are sorry after they get caught, he just was faced with the consequences of his choices and regretted it for that. If he was never in danger imo I feel like he would not have repented.

Being compelled to hunt him is one thing but Moiraine flat out said "Padan Fain was the Dark One's creature to the depths of his soul" and as far as I know to be that deep the Dark One's you have to choose it. There are people who aren't Darkfriends that are compelled but their core soul isn't tainted by the Dark One so regardless of if he regretted it or not, he made a choice. Seems like he just always thought he'd never have to face the consequences
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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To me wanting to return to the Light after being tortured by the Dark One's creatures strikes me as "oh no you mean that giving my soul to the dark one means more than just using his power to get rich and benefit myself? Well damn looks like I better come to the light"
Sort of like how people are sorry after they get caught, he just was faced with the consequences of his choices and regretted it for that. If he was never in danger imo I feel like he would not have repented.

Being compelled to hunt him is one thing but Moiraine flat out said "Padan Fain was the Dark One's creature to the depths of his soul" and as far as I know to be that deep the Dark One's you have to choose it. There are people who aren't Darkfriends that are compelled but their core soul isn't tainted by the Dark One so regardless of if he regretted it or not, he made a choice. Seems like he just always thought he'd never have to face the consequences

I understand what you are saying and I agree with all of that but only after like book 3 or so. I still say at end of book 1 Padan should not be condemned just yet.

Also at end of book 1, Egwene reminds Moraine in King Agelmar's chamber something along the lines of no one is so far from the Light they can not return.

and Moraine agree with Egwene on this regarding Padan in this chapter. I think all 'humans' make mistakes or are tempted by greed and envy at some point in their life, and I think most humans fail in this regard, but we learn and redeem ourselves. I think it is only after Padan fully loses his humanity in later books he can no longer be redeemed, but I do believe there was a window of chance at end of book 1 for him when he was finally seeing the Dark One for what he truly was and that no great reward was coming...

but by them the compulsion whether it was Mordeth or the Dark One or both eventually drove him to madness, in which he ceased being a human at some point, and instead became another twisted creation of the Dark One, although the Dark One's fear of Padan later on suggests it was an accidental creation.

I don't think Padan can be judged though at this point, the compulsion stopped him from even being able to flee the Dark One, in which he no longer had free will, even though he tried his hardest to run away. if he was able to run away who knows if he would have changed his ways or not, but I think my argument is the idea of the free will
 

Alora Sionn

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Yeah I can see your reasoning and agree to a point. But anytime I start feeling like well maybe he could have been redeemed, I think of the actions that Darkfriends take aren't just in word but in deed, and they do pretty horrific things in the Dark One's name and all for their own greed. The lives of their fellow humans are expendable and torture is not out of the question. We don't know what all he did to get so high in the dark ones favor but I bet it wasn't just "weee I'm a dark friend" lol and he 100% was prepared to kill three farm boys without a second thought
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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Yeah I can see your reasoning and agree to a point. But anytime I start feeling like well maybe he could have been redeemed, I think of the actions that Darkfriends take aren't just in word but in deed, and they do pretty horrific things in the Dark One's name and all for their own greed. The lives of their fellow humans are expendable and torture is not out of the question. We don't know what all he did to get so high in the dark ones favor but I bet it wasn't just "weee I'm a dark friend" lol and he 100% was prepared to kill three farm boys without a second thought


"wee i'm a darkfriend" :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Alora that was hilarious lol

and yes I concede to your arguments, they do make sense
 

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I think you are both right. Padan Fain decided to become a Darkfriend, but because of the compulsion he never was able to make a decision later to no longer serve the Dark One and go back to the light. I have sympathy that he no longer had a choice, but I also understand that he made the decision in the first place.

This is the same reason I have sympathy for Gollum. The ring ensnared him and made him do actions that he wouldn't normally do as Smeagol. The difference, I suppose, is that Padan Fain made a conscious choice and, in the end, only he knows the truth of his story. It also didn't help that he was merged with Mordeth.
 

Wil Cambrae

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I think it should also be pointed out that by the time Moriane was able to talk to him,
there were at least two if not three minds fighting for control of Padan Fain's mind, and what he said might not be held as absolute truth. RJ has said many times that what we read in the books that characters hold to be true is not always true, but merely what they believe to be. Is Padan Fain evil? Yes. Did he choose to become the creature he was in the end? No, but his choices led up to his interactions that created the vile filth that he was. He did have a piece of Mordeth in him because how else would he do the things he did with the Fades and Trollocs, and how else would he corrupt his army to follow his ideals and debase themselves so?
Remember too that Moraine said she felt soiled by being with him and wished to cleanse for a week afterward. I do believe that she knew that what she was getting from him wasn't a complete truth, but like the Three Oaths was enough Truth to satisfy the Compelling that she was using.
 

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I think it is easy to forget that Padan had a life before we meet him in the Two Rivers at the start of book 1. Like Alora said, he must have done some pretty nasty stuff to get to a place where The Dark One chose him as his hound (or, maybe that was actually Ishamael?) You don't become an important pawn for The Shadow without proving yourself.

I
I think all 'humans' make mistakes or are tempted by greed and envy at some point in their life, and I think most humans fail in this regard, but we learn and redeem ourselves. I think it is only after Padan fully loses his humanity in later books he can no longer be redeemed, but I do believe there was a window of chance at end of book 1 for him when he was finally seeing the Dark One for what he truly was and that no great reward was coming...

Padan the human, before insanity, was a bad person. I don't see he's actions as "human mistakes" he made conscious choices, without compulsion or confusion, to do evil things. He was compelled to find and follow the boys, and then just Rand, but not to hurt or kill, just to know where they were. I don't see that as an excuse for what he did.

I also feel that Egwene's words were not there to give us hope for Fain (or any other dark friend) but merely to show us her goodness.
 

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I always believed that Padan Fain was like a human version of the would in Rand's side: Chaotic evil (the Dark One) combined/battling with Lawful Evil (Mordeth/Shadar Logoth taint). And that's what really drove Fain mad.
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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I always believed that Padan Fain was like a human version of the would in Rand's side: Chaotic evil (the Dark One) combined/battling with Lawful Evil (Mordeth/Shadar Logoth taint). And that's what really drove Fain mad.

Very interesting! I really like this idea. Thank you for sharing that.

For a long time, Padan was a physical manifestation of the absurdity of existence like in the philosopher Albert Camus' work, and so Padan embraced insanity to a level that even the Dark One feared. I have been leaning away from that idea for awhile now, but your explanation is something similar to where I was going with that originally... a long time ago when I first read Padan I mean. Padan reminds me of the Joker when the Joker burns the entire pile of money. It's not about power or money or anything for Padan, at some point its just pure insanity.

and @Eliza Al'Shaw I understand what you are saying, and it is true. I think deep down I felt that since Padan could make the entire village excited when he visited, and even Egwene admits she liked him visiting and he made her laugh on previous visits, that there had to be a spark of hope in someone like that, but when I really think about that... it was all a mask for Padan, his true self was consumed by greed/power/envy and can be shown by the crimes he continuously committed.

For me, I do believe in redemption, but I think Padan is such a different case I misunderstood it.
 
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Nadezhda al'Lanahrin

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I honestly believe anyone in a story can be redeemed. But the redemption arc has to fit how far in the dark they had gone. It can’t be easy.
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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I honestly believe anyone in a story can be redeemed. But the redemption arc has to fit how far in the dark they had gone. It can’t be easy.

I think the theme of Padan Fain is just that though, he no longer counts as anyone at some point in the story arc, he ceases to be human and is something else otherwise the Dark One wouldn't fear him. A manifestation of insanity came from Padan Fain I think... I'm not sure, that's how I interpreted his arc though.
 
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Minor point, but I don't think Padan was Compelled any more than any other oath-sworn Darkfriend. We find out from people like Verin that swearing oaths to the Dark One is a bit like swearing on an Oath Rod. He swore to serve the Dark One, and was then held to that oath. I think he knew what he was getting into and knew what he was decided was permanent (without the intervention of something like getting cut off, like Asmodean, which I doubt he'd know about) and decided to do it anyway.

I think we can also extrapolate from what a circle of 13 dreadlords and a myrddral can do that your soul being tied to the Dark One -- willingly or not -- has pretty severe mystical consequences. I don't think someone besides the Dark One was "Compelling" him except through the Oath he'd originally sworn.
 

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I think before he was summoned to Shayol Ghul, he was just a standard evil looking darkfriend - he had murdered people, taken part in strange ceremonies and such, none of which bothered him. He probably didn't enjoy it the way Temaille did, or feel pride the way Chesmal or Hanlon did, but he also didn't care at all - he could be ordered to go kill a whole family and his only concern would be making sure no one knew he did it.
After, he didn't get any more evil, but the way he was treated made him realise that the Dark One cared about him no more than He cared about non Darkfriends, and he was utterly disposable - he could be killed and tortured not only if he was a danger or mere inconvenience, but if someone higher up just felt like it, or if there could be any benefit to the Shadow. This, combined with the way he was treated after the (failed) attack at the begining of the Eye of the World, turned him against the Dark One, but until he merged with Mordeth, could do nothing about it.
Even after this, he didn't want to return to the light, he just hated the Shadow
 

Ephrem Elpidius

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Thank you for all the excellent points everyone. I do recall Brandon Sanderson saying in one of his interviews about WoT that one of his regrets was not being able to finish the Padan Fain arc. Would be interesting if Harriet and Brandon would team up for a short Novella on Padan and a few other arcs that never got tied up well. I know that will never happen Brandon has made it clear he is busy with his own works too much, but eh.
 

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This might be a good video to watch.
 
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