What should the Aes Sedai do with Mesaana?

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Possibly, yet the point is that I'm pretty sure the amount of power used to destroy Graendal's entire fortress in one shot was more powerful than what the circle of Aes Sedai that I proposed could produce.

That horrifying amount of power and the large number of targets affected by it was enough to almost unravel the pattern. Single target (Messana) with less power behind the strike seems like it would be safer.
 
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I agree with what you say, if it were an isolated event. Just one person killed by Balefire is no big deal. It won't unravel the Pattern. Every single place where it's been used can be rationalised. Kill a few Forsaken. Kill Darkhounds to save people from dying. Undo deaths caused by people. And so forth. The more Balefire that is used, the greater the risk to the pattern. That's why it's not acceptable to Balefire Mesaana. Where do you stop? Where do you draw the line? If you don't, at some point, it'll ruin wreck the Pattern beyond repair. That's why Aes Sedai have outlawed it.
 
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We'll just have to disagree on that one I guess. Killing darkhounds and Chosen with balefire seems worth the risk to me.

It brings up an interesting question tho.

When there are several packs of Darkhounds showing up at the last battle, how will the forces of light deal with them? Regular wolves have no way of killing a darkhound as far as I know.
 
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Tehmpus said:
We'll just have to disagree on that one I guess. Killing darkhounds and Chosen with balefire seems worth the risk to me.

It brings up an interesting question tho.

When there are several packs of Darkhounds showing up at the last battle, how will the forces of light deal with them? Regular wolves have no way of killing a darkhound as far as I know.

I'm sure they can come up with some other way to stop them. Not necessarily killing them ... but stopping them, at least.
 
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Why not just use Deathgates? Shadowspawn can't pass through them without being destroyed. Also, I believe Lan said something about water being harmful to them.
 

Sorcha Al'Verdan

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I agree, Deathgates seem to be the most practical suggestion. Water doesn't injure them (at least I don't remember anyone ever saying so), but they really don't like it and will go miles out of their way to avoid it.

I think that deathgates are the best bet, but I wonder how they would be best employed? Flat on the ground, so the shadowspawn just fall through? The whole flickering moving gates thing seems to be too much effort for less than ideal results. Perhaps they can have an inverted Mirror of Mists woven over them as a disguise :)

Anyway, as far as what they should do with Mesaana, they should restore her mental capacities, tie her up to a post, give her 2 lashes daily, and let the citizenry mock her to death. I imagine she wouldn't last long under such treatment, and it would be the most humiliating and awful experience she could possibly undergo, imo. PLus, it would ease the fears of the general populace and go a long way towards restoring hope that TDO can be defeated.
 
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Lan said that a thunderstorm would stop them in their tracks. Seems like you could just go crazy with the weather to pin them down, and then use the shifting Deathgates to tear through them while they're at a standstill.
 

Sorcha Al'Verdan

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Saervil Delovinde said:
Lan said that a thunderstorm would stop them in their tracks. Seems like you could just go crazy with the weather to pin them down, and then use the shifting Deathgates to tear through them while they're at a standstill.

When did he say that? I need to reread that section...
 

CalebMSmith90

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Tehmpus said:
A single column large enough to encompass Graendal's entire fortress? I'm not certain if he used ALL the power at the Chodan Kal's calling ability, but he certainly used alot.

the choaden kal were more powerful than callandor, and callandor could destroy an entire city. safe to say rand used a fraction of its power
 
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Who's to say exactly how powerful the Chodan Kal actually were. I believe that when they destroyed an entire city in the age of legends with balefire... it was multiple channellers using multiple balefire streams. (at least that's the impression I got) It wasn't like one massive column of balefire encompassing an entire city and pop goes the weasel it was gone. It was more like an entire section of the pattern unravelled because too many of the individual threads had been balefired in that area during the war. Also, sometimes I get the impression that a balefire strike was a single ray. Other times, I get the impression that the person balefiring is creating a continuous stream that doesn't stop until the channeller stops. Sometimes they take that stream and move it around, using it to carve up things like with an immense knife which disintegrates anything it trouches. I guess it depends on how the balefire is used and the amount of force behind it.
 

CalebMSmith90

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im gonna quote wikipedia, but heres the answer i have to that

"There is some confusion as to whether Callandor is a male-only sa'angreal or one that can be used by both sexes. Siuan Sanche tells Nynaeve that with Callandor in her hands, she could level an entire city with one blow"

Balefire is not the only way to destroy a city, and if Callandor, theoretically in the hands of Suiam Sanche, a much weaker channeler than Rand, could level a city, than its safe to say Rand could have easily have done it with Callandor, with or without Balefire. Take the Choedan Kal, a much much more powerful Saangreal than Callandor. Just two people weilding them together could destroy the world. Rand weilding the Male half could with minimal effort i believe destroy a city with Balefire. The only reason that there are no legends of this from the AOL is that the Choedan KAl were never completed. Rand with the Choedan Kal could destroy Camelyn in a single shot and still not have maxed out its potentiol
 

Morrighan Daghdera

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If Lanfear is to be believed, then there were 2 sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. One must be the Choedan Kal. Per Moiraine,
Library said:
“With a sa'angreal like Callandor, you could annihilate an entire city with balefire” (Moiraine, The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 6, Gateways)

So if Callandor could do it, then certainly the Choedan Kal could.

NOW, back to Mesaana...Sor Sedai, I like your idea about public humiliation being terrible for her & a source of optimism for the populace. Well played. :D
 

CalebMSmith90

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I believe that the Tower should heal her of her madness. Anything but death can be healed right. Heal her, still her, etc. and gain a leg up on the DO. Nynaeve fixed madness caused by the taint, I would think she could heal this. I think Balefire should be used as a last resort against a threat, and Mesana,is no longer a threat to anyone. The only forsaken who couldve helped her are long dead, or reluctant to do so, and the light side channelers who could are more powerful tan she ever was anyways
 
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It's a little hard to wrap your head around how powerful the Choedan Kal actually are but I always liked how LTT and Nesune put it

"Forgive me, Cadsuane," Kumira broke into the silence, heeling her dapple forward. "Young man, have you considered the possibility of failure? Have you considered the consequences of failure?"
"I must ask the same question," Nesune said sharply. She sat very straight in her saddle, and her dark eyes met Rand's gaze levelly. "By everything I have read, the attempt to use those sa'angreal may result in disaster. Together, they might be strong enough to crack the world like an egg."
Like an egg! Lews Therin agreed. They were never tested, never tried. This is insane! he shrieked. You are mad! Mad!

The energy needed to break open a planet is gigantic, let its seemingly able to do it.

Single CK strikes or multiple channeller passes with multiple balefire streams are probably equally effective in burning out the a whole city.

The effect on the pattern is probably quite different. a CK strike would probably leave a uniform hole in the pattern, as every thread within the damage zone is burned back the same amount.

Multiple streams of different power levels, probably leaves a bit of a ragged hole.

I'm not sure which is more dangerous to the pattern though to be honest, one BIG strike and undoing of all actions, or multiple small ones, with paradoxes building and rebuilding on each other as the erasures interact with each other.

Either aren't great for the pattern I'm sure.

The main difference between multiple channellers burning out a city with mulitple balefire streams, and hitting it with a single strike from the CK is probably power.

Multiple streams can only burn back as the power in the individual flows. Seconds, minutes..... maybe depending on the strength of the individual user

The CK has a MUCH larger capacity to draw upon and can punch out the existence of the city for much longer.

Brandon extrapolated using the CK being 100 times more powerful than Rand that the CK could burn back something 4 days.

now I think he was a bit on the low side of the Power for the CK. It's probably a lot more than that in my opinion.

Even if it is only 4 days............. burning a city out for 4 days would be pretty harmful to the pattern, let alone if it was for a month or something.

So really, the CK are bloody dangerous. The flows alone could destroy the world. While balefiring with it could destroy existence itself.

No wonder there was a balescream when Rand hit Graendals place.

Interview: Oct 27th, 2009
BYU Stormleader Dinner - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)
Matt Hatch
We know that in the Age of Legends that the Forsaken/Chosen, everyone agreed to stop using balefire because of its effects on the Pattern. Is it unrealistic then to say that a great amount of power could burn someone’s thread back a year or six months? Is that an unrealistic thing to say that there is enough power available to either one or multiple people to burn somebody back that far?
Brandon Sanderson
I see what you are getting at you are trying to figure out if killed Graendal with a whole lot of balefire would bring Asmodean back to life.
MATT HATCH
...like that could ever happen...
BRANDON SANDERSON
That’s what you are digging for isn’t it?
MATT HATCH
Let’s say, if a Forsaken was responsible for killing another Forsaken...
BRANDON SANDERSON
Uh huh...
MATT HATCH
And said Forsaken was balefired...
BRANDON SANDERSON
You are under the assumption...You are trying to figure out who killed Asmodean again. That’s what you are trying to do and I’m not going to get caught and let you know...
MATT HATCH
It’s a legit question...and I’m sure whatever is said at this table stays at this table...
BRANDON SANDERSON
I’m sure, the leader of Theoryland and the guy taping this... [much laughter] Let’s divorce it. Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us—what have you determined?—from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.
MATT HATCH
Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done...
MATT HATCH
Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most...
BRANDON SANDERSON
Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100-fold...let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.
MATT HATCH
Like I said to Jennifer, it is my job at Theoryland to entertain these ideas.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes it is, it is your job to entertain them. But in the terms of Mythbusters let’s go ahead and call that one “Busted” in the realistic world. I’ve got to give you at least something, so I’ll at least give you that...If it were possible to do things like that, we’d have the Dark One just going and balefiring you know Tam so Rand never gets picked up off the mountain. [...] I think it is more loose guidelines than it is a formula.


CalebMSmith90 said:
I believe that the Tower should heal her of her madness. Anything but death can be healed right. Heal her, still her, etc. and gain a leg up on the DO. Nynaeve fixed madness caused by the taint, I would think she could heal this. I think Balefire should be used as a last resort against a threat, and Mesana,is no longer a threat to anyone. The only forsaken who couldve helped her are long dead, or reluctant to do so, and the light side channelers who could are more powerful tan she ever was anyways


I wouldn't call it madness.

Her mind is broken, its more like she's mentally damaged than insane.

I'm not sure there's much left of her mind to heal.
 

CalebMSmith90

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i think they speculated in one of the books that perhaps just one could destroy the world, thats how unsure of their power they were
 
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Yeah, it's not that someone did something with the Power to cause Mesaana to become mad, or used compulsion on her. Egwene literally made her a vegetable just by thinking that she was a vegetable in T'A'R. Therefore, there's nothing to Heal, since that is now the "normal" state of her mind.
 

CalebMSmith90

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people in this life have come out of comas where they were vegetables. no reason to belive it cant be healed just because at the present we have no idea how to. she could be in there somewhere.
 
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But it's not like she's in a coma ... it's more like she's got a mixture of Cerebral Palsy and far onset Huntington's. Healing doesn't bring back what isn't there; it only mends what is still there to work with. She's lost a lot of brain cells, so it's unlikely Healing would grow them back.
 
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I have a feeling that your argument is moot. Whether or not Mesaana could be healed to regain her sanity, the Aes Sedai will probably execute her for her crimes. It is tower law after all. In addtion, lots of the storylines in the Brandon Sanderson books are a little out of sequence due to the way he wrote them. Remember that Graendal was blamed for the deaths of 3 Chosen? We know that she didn't DIRECTLY kill them, but she got the blame for 3 deaths. Even though we haven't seen Messana executed just as of yet, it stands to reason that logically the Aes Sedai have done it. With the timelines squewed, it could have happened already.
 
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