2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising

Rhed al'Tere

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 36-42

Chapter 35

  • Egwene totally lied about keeping her word. She's likely to blow her cover or instill mistrust in Aes Sedai.
  • I loved seeing Amys putting Egwene in her place.
  • I feel sorry for Aviendha having to spend every waking moment with Rand. Whatever she saw in the rings was as bad for her feelings for him as the Accepted test is for Accepted who come out hating Aes Sedai.
  • Egwene compares Moiraine to ice, but that's Moiraine's way of processing the rings. Aviendha's angry and sullen, while Moiraine takes it all inside (as Aes Sedai are trained to do).
Chapter 36

  • Did Aviendha read Elayne's letters? (Would it have made a difference?)
  • Kadere seems to be a legit peddler whom Lanfear Compulsed.
  • Mat gets his hat.
  • Even disguised as Keille, Lanfear wears all white.
  • Rand knows there's something off about Kadere et al.
Chapter 37

  • Mat starts thinking about improvements to weapons (crossbow).
  • Mat: "None of which he was sure had ever existed." Could some of the memories be fake? Does Mat have memories from our Age? Can you imagine Mat remembering dancing in a nightclub, or using a machine gun? :giggle
  • Second mention of Mat being invited to play Maiden's Kiss, but he actually asked to play.
  • Mat was tricked into talking about everything by Jasin/Asmodean.
Chapter 38

  • Egeanin eventually takes the name Leilwin, the name of a noble who was kidnapped and who Egeanin sent to be a slave.
  • Egeanin doesn't like that the Whitecloaks are answerable only to themselves.
  • The Seanchan don't let people go hungry.
  • Pedon Niall is setting the Whitecloaks against Dragonsworn.
  • Contrast between Seanchan (Egeanin) and Whitecloaks (Carridin) -- the Whitecloaks don'e care about people. (Even if they're not Darkfriends.)
  • Jaichim Carridin = Bors.
  • Is Bors more afraid of the Black Ajah than Myrdraal?
  • Ugh: Bors tells where to find his sister, sells out his family to be killed. Obviously that's not a thread to hold him to his task, just a way to count down to his death should he continue to fail.
  • Liandrin does have the trick of opening people to suggestion. I'm sure she used it on Juilin, and I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that her trick comes with the unwillingness to disappoint her.
  • Seekers for Truth -- the mark of the raven is forever, even through generations.
  • Seanchan have the same misconception of the Breaking as the Whitecloaks -- that it was all channelers and not just male channelers.

  • In the testing for damane, how do they tell the damane from sul'dam? They can't just slap the collar on everyone -- that would catch future sul'dam as well. Maybe if you have to learn to channel, the collar doesn't work on you until later, once you've learned to channel. Or, rather, learned to control a damane... which is the same thing.
  • Egeanin's worldview is starting to shift.
Chapter 39

  • Domon recognizes Thom.
  • Elayne thinks about eating to much jelly, and too many sweets in general -- this is something Aviendha mentions in the first sister ceremony. So it's not just out of nowhere. :pleased-1:
  • Nynaeve, at least, has an awareness that the further east you are, the later in the day it is. It didn't occur to me that they'd be aware of this.
 

Megana Vallentin

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 36-42

I was really surprised Egwene didn't confess to only being Accepted when Amys caught her. Aes Sedai can't lie!

I also go back and forth on whether I think Amys made a mistake about making Egwene wear braids. It's humiliating to the Aiel, but to Egwene it's a sign of adulthood. Even two braids instead of one doesn't sound like a bad thing...Rand says she looks like a bride. No one Egwene cares about understand that it's meant to be humiliating either, except Aviendha and the Wise Ones.

On the other hand, Egwene really wants the Wise Ones trust and respect, so having them see her being punished (even if no one else understands it as punishment) would still have an impact.
 

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 36-42

  • Did Aviendha read Elayne's letters? (Would it have made a difference?)
I don't think she has? If she had, maybe she wouldn't have told Rand with such confidence that Elayne meant what she said in both letters. :laugh:

  • In the testing for damane, how do they tell the damane from sul'dam? They can't just slap the collar on everyone -- that would catch future sul'dam as well. Maybe if you have to learn to channel, the collar doesn't work on you until later, once you've learned to channel. Or, rather, learned to control a damane... which is the same thing.

That was my assumption, yeah. The damane are people who are going to channel anyway regardless of whether they're taught. So their power manifests earlier and more strongly. Maybe that means the collar part of the a'dam requires more of the power or something? So all the damane can use both ends of the a'dam, but a young sul'dam can only use the bracelet end... until they learn and grow more into their power.
 

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Chapter 37:
-During the battle in the Waste, Mat feels the foxhead medallion go hold from channeling before he realizes what it means.
-Rand is really suspicious of the peddlers. Mat thinks he's paranoid and might be going crazy.

Chapter 38:
-While you're primed to dislike the Seanchan, Jordan does a good job at showing us a real Seanchan in Egeanin. It does a good job at humanizing the individuals within Seanchan since, until now, we'd mostly seen sul'dam/damane and Suroth... And Egeanin hates the Whitecloaks. Even the concept outrages her. Another good way at making us like Egeanin, along with her questioning parts of Seanchan culture.
-Carridin is desperate to sell out his family, even telling Liandrin where his sister sleeps.
-I like how the ability to kill with the Power is closely linked to Healing. It makes a lot of sense.
-Within the Black Ajah, Eldrith is killing the cats that Marillin takes in. :brown-blink:
-They talk about putting Rand on a leash. Do they realize how literal they're being here?

Chapter 39:
-Domon recognizes Thom from when they rode on his ship after Shadar Logoth.
-Nynaeve casually mentions the Black Ajah. Elayne: "She seemed to be telling everyone about the Black Ajah of late." :rofl Poor Elayne.
-Drunk Elayne is hilarious. She pushes Thom back into his room by his mustache. :rofl :rofl
-Nynaeve recognizes that Slayer looks like Lan. Why did he try to shoot her? Did he have a reason or does he just like to shoot people? :p

Chapter 40:
-Where does Alanna keep disappearing to? Do we ever find out? It says Ihvon was surprised to find her gone, too.
-Perrin thinks there's little to justify his title as 'Hunter of Trollocs' and then proceeds to describe himself doing just that. He may have had help from Aiel and a Warder, so he didn't kill them all by himself, but he is the one who hunted them.
-Luc has wolf-embroidered gauntlets...
-So I get that Myrddraal cloaks don't move while they walk/run, but wouldn't they at least kick them with their feet as they run? :look:

Chapter 41:
-The Aiel refuse to go near the Tuatha'an and are contemptuous of them. It makes sense for those who know the reason why, but it's interesting that even people like Bain and Chiad who have never been to Rhuidean feel the same way. The repulsion has been passed down even for those who don't know the reason.
-Perrin wonders about the odds of the Tinkers in the Two Rivers being the ones he knows. Ta'veren?
-People think Tinkers steal things, even though they don't.
-Raen is starting to despair that they'll ever find the song. Later, Perrin wonders if there ever was a song or if they had started their journey because of something else. Well, both. :p They didn't start to wander specifically to look for the song (though that was a goal they agreed upon while they were splitting), but there was actually a song they knew they had forgotten... or rather, many songs.
-Ila warns Faile that Perrin likes the company of beautiful girls... yeah, Faile really needs someone else making her protective of Perrin. :rolleyes
-The Tuatha'an despise all weapons, but they've kept some of the Aiel hatred for swords in particular. Not something I'd picked up on my first read.
-Perrin finally asks Faile who her father is. :laugh: If she wanted to keep it secret, she shouldn't have credited him with all those quotes. :p
-And then she tries to defend it and say it wasn't a lie because he is a merchant of sorts. Of course, she doesn't explain how it wasn't a lie when she said he was a shepherd.
-Speaking of keeping secrets... Perrin finally tells her about the wolves. Earlier in the chapter he mentions that he's less worried about hiding it from people (presumably because he has more important things to worry about), so it's really not surprising that it finally came out. Though her asking came from hearing other people mention the wolves, not him.

Chapter 42:
-Perrin's struggle between axe vs. hammer reminds me of the Aiel's choosing spears over swords. The Aiel originally rejected swords because they weren't used for anything besides killing, while a spear could be useful. It's not totally the same of course, since an axe is a tool, not just a weapon. But a hammer is primarily a tool and, at least the way Perrin uses it, the axe is primarily a weapon. (and he has used the hammer as a weapon before, so it's not like he'd be totally weaponless if he rejected the axe)
-You can't enter the Ways in Tel'aran'rhiod.
-Perrin recognizes Slayer's scent, but can't place it.
-Slayer wants to keep the Whitecloaks off balance and see that 'the renegade' dies. Who's the renegade? Fain? Why would Slayer want him dead?
-Perrin's ta'veren nature even makes Raen reconsider their policy of not going near towns/cities. I don't think he could actually make them go against their principles like that, but I do wonder, if Perrin had asked the rest of the tuatha'an rather than Raen relaying the offer for him, if the rest of them would've hesitated like Raen did.
-Aram is sulky. I assume because he's been considering Perrin's offer and doesn't like the idea of having to refuse because of tuatha'an policy.
-Faile refuses to let any woman hug Perrin goodbye while all the men apparently are hugging her. :rolleyes
Perrin said:
A few last kisses collected by Wil. And Ban. Ban! And his nose.
:rofl Perrin just cannnot get over his nose. :laugh:
-Perrin asks Gaul about Maiden's Kiss. :laugh: Did they actually get him to play it? Or was it just the suggestion that made Gaul stumble? :p

Chapter 43:
-Luc claims to be the King of Andor, if he had his rights. :rolleyes
-During the Trolloc Wars, when Aes Sedai were trying to shut down a Waygate, they damaged it in such a way as to pull them inside. :brown-blink: :brown-blink: That's terrifying.
 

Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

TSR: 36 – The Aiel break camp, and we see the Shaido break traditions for the first time here, showing that their leadership is quite poor, Aviendha talks about Elayne, embarassing Rand when she gets to Elyane's body. Rand should have told Aviendha what was in the letters here though, just to get her reaction considering that the letters were contradictory in nature.

They also find a Merchant/Peddler train, and we see Lanfear using the Mirror of Mists to make herself ugly and fat, however she doesn't hide her voice very well, it still has the melodious quality. I wonder if Lanfear was a singer of some sort before she turned to the shadow, one of the qualities that Jordan pointed out with her was repeatedly her voice, and even when she is willing to hide her physical beauty, she does not hide her voice. Rand pegs Kadere as a Darkfriend immediately, and Mat gets his Hat. Hats are important for trickster heroes, you can't be a proper Rogue without a decent hat.

TSR: 37

Rand – The group arrives in Imre Stand, and it has apparently been attacked by Trollocs, I imagine Lanfear is using the power to hide them in some way considering how far into the Waste they are at this point, and more descriptions of the waste. I was apparently dumb as heck the first time I read through this there are plenty of references to the waste not being a desert.

Rand also begins to learn the spear, which never really comes into play later in the series.

Mat- Mat gets into a discussion with Jasin Natael, they talk about Mat's trip to Rhuidean. I wonder what Asmodean is fishing for here, does he know that that there are Items of the Power in Rhuidean?
Then dinner happens, Jasin sings which brings memories to Mat's mind, ones that are not his own, Then Trollocs attack, interestingly they do attack the Shaido, so I do not think that the plot with Lanfear, Couladin and Asmodean is going on yet, as one would think it would be a wretched idea to kill the guy who is going to screw up Rand's plans.

TSR: 38

Egeanin – We find out there are Seanchan spies in The Wetlands.

Jaichim – We move to a whitecloak's POV, he is embroiled in plots to gain the White Cloaks power in Tanchico, and that Tarabon is basically a pit of chaos and disorder with the King having little authority outside of his own walls, then he runs into Liandrin, who very promptly puts him in his place. She knows the name Bors, and That Ba'alzamon appeared, confirming that Liandrin was one of the Aes Sedai at that meeting, and that Jaichim's disguise was not as good as he thought.

Liandrin – Liandrin knows the ter'angreal they are looking for has the power to control someone who can channel, however does not connect it with the A'dam, she is not as smart as she thinks she is, also she is apparently lowborn, do we know where Liandrin comes from? The reaction that Egwene and Nyneave have when they first arrived in Tanchico and meet Rendra.

Rendra mentions a sister, and seems to have been lowborn herself, could she actually be related to Liandrin?

Egeanin – Hello Seeker, apparently Seekers are slaves to the Throne whose family will always be slaves. Seanchan culture is Royally SCREWED THE HECK UP, these slaves are marked to the point where getting drunk and getting a Tattoo makes you property of the throne, and every one of your children, and their children are property.

I wonder what would happen if someone was born with a birthmark in the image of a raven, that would be an awkward moment.

TSR: 39

Nynaeve's party arrive in Tanchico, and run into Bayle Domon! Yay I love Bayle he is like the Wheel of Time answers to a DnD Dwarf, and he apologizes for leaving Falme, which I don't think anyone blames him for, considering that The Horn of Valire was blown and the Heroes of the ages were showing up. A proper Illianer would probably be thinking “Was that the Horn of Valire? Is that a Hero of the Horn? Well the last battle is happening, it might be time to leave”

Elayne gets drunk, and Nyneave goes into the world of dreams, and runs into Asmodean(?) outside of Rhuidean, leaps to Emond's Field, and meets slayer, who looks enough like Lan to freak her out.

And then Elayne has a hangover!

TSR: 40

Perrin visits his family's farm, and looks at their graves, then Faile and Luc appear and tell Perrin of recent goings on in Emond's Field, the Two River's folk are gathering there, taking Perrin's advice about gathering in the Town, The Aiel show up and tell of a group of Trollocs and a Fade moving in the swamps to the south, I presume Waterwood is a swamp. Luc heads back to town, and Faile stays, riding with the Trolloc Hunters, and then Perrin says something that wants me to slap him. “I only Trust you, my bow and my axe”

Seriously? What about Loial, or Gaul? Gaul walked through the ways to play a blood debt to you, and didn't at once complain, or even show fear. Perrin deserved the arrow in his gut for that crap, I told you guys Gaul doesn't get enough respect.

TSR: 41

Perrin meets the traveling people again, and manages to surprise everyone by doing the Rituals for Raen, then Ila inquires about Elyas, odd for someone who supposedly has a distaste for his lifestyle, another little thing that makes me think that there is blood relation between either Elyas and Raen or Elyas and Ila.

And Perrin finally tells Faile about the wolves, and I love that she just accepts it and even seems to think it a good thing, especially when it comes to her Parents, and it makes sense Perrin is a Tav'eren and can speak to wolves, it certainly would make the blood of House Bashere a bit stronger, and we know that Blood seems to have power in WoTverse, Mat and Egwene both tapped into the blood of Manetheran, which Perrin shares as well. Of note, Faile does not mention her Father as one of the five great captains.

TSR: 42

From Slayer's phrasing here, I think we can come up with an answer for those of whom were wondering about The White Cloaks and Trollocs in the two rivers.
Slayer is after a “Renegade” presumably a Renegade dark friend, so that probably means Fain/Ordeith/Mordeth, and he is having problems, and he brought the Trollocs in to distract the White Cloaks, as to why the White Cloaks are there in the first place, Remember that Fain was whispering in Nial's Ear and told him of the Three Ta'veren and that they were Dark Friends and that Rand was a false dragon.

TSR: 43

Perrin tries to convince The Tinkers to come to Emonds Field, and they refuse, and this is the last time Perrin has contact with the The Traveling people, a shame really I somewhat expected Raen to show up in the last book. However Aram drove a large wedge between Perrin and Raen/Ila I suppose.

Perrin's group heads to the town proper, Verin finds them when they arrive and she seems to take charge, having Perrin brought to the winespring while Alanna is fetched to heal him, since she is better at healing than Verin, he tells Loial of the waygate being open again and Loial very rightfully blames himself.

I love Loial but he deserves a smack for what he did at the waygate, even the first time going through the series I yelled “Take the leaves off let the darn things die” and screamed like an idiot at my Iphone when I was listening to this chapter the first time.

There is a way to grow new leaves? YOU CAN REPAIR THE DAMAGE COME ON LOIAL you are smarter than that you dumb dumb dumb Ogier, even if you don't know there are Trollocs and Fades in the Two Rivers just locking it from one side is a terrible idea considering that a Fade could sneak up there easily unlock it again.

Or even a Raven, it is a leaf they are small, Perrin then gets really sick and on the edge of death and as he fades to unconsciousness he thinks “I wonder if Faile will come hunting with me” which shows how much of a wolf he is subconsciously.
 

Kassina Tendar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

and then Perrin says something that wants me to slap him. “I only Trust you, my bow and my axe”
Yeah... that annoyed me as well. :indifferent: :facepalm Seriously, there are at the very least a few people you know you can trust. :indifferent:

Rendra mentions a sister, and seems to have been lowborn herself, could she actually be related to Liandrin?
I've been looking in my book and can't seem to find her mentioning a sister. (of course I could just be missing it) Do you happen to remember when she mentions that?
 

Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Rendra? she mentions her sister right when she is first introduced IIRC.
 

Kassina Tendar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Oh, ok. :laugh: I'll go double check. My searching skills fail. :p

Nnnope, still can't find it. :facepalm
 
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Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Hmm it might have been a little later, Reading 2 weeks ahead, writing a week ahead..and keeping up with you guys can somewhat muddle things.
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Did Aviendha read Elayne's letters? (Would it have made a difference?)

[…]

Kadere seems to be a legit peddler whom Lanfear Compulsed.

1) Aviendha did not read Elayne’s letters. She only knows about them because Egwene mentioned them. Egwene doesn’t know they are two contradictory letters either. The whole letter thing makes me want to :desk.

2) I thought Kadere was actually a Darkfriend?

Mat gets his Hat. Hats are important for trickster heroes, you can't be a proper Rogue without a decent hat.

:rofl I had never thought about it like that before but so much yes!

Mat- Mat gets into a discussion with Jasin Natael, they talk about Mat's trip to Rhuidean. I wonder what Asmodean is fishing for here, does he know that that there are Items of the Power in Rhuidean?

[…]

And Perrin finally tells Faile about the wolves, and I love that she just accepts it and even seems to think it a good thing, especially when it comes to her ParentsTSR: 42

[…]

Perrin tries to convince The Tinkers to come to Emonds Field, and they refuse, and this is the last time Perrin has contact with the The Traveling people, a shame really I somewhat expected Raen to show up in the last book.

1) I think that Asmodean either knows or hopes that the little statues that control the giant statues are somewhere in Rhuidean. (I’m sorry, I’m totally blanking on the names of things right now. :\) After all, he would know that the Aiel had all those angreal/sa’angreal/ter’angreal and were intending to put them somewhere safe. Isn’t there a plot later on between Asmodean and Lanfear to get those little statues and use them? Or at least, that’s what Asmodean things, but Lanfear wants Rand to have the male statue, not Asmodean.

2) I laughed out loud over the Faile/Perrin conversation about the wolves and her parents. Not sure why I found it so amusing but the whole “my parents want me to marry a king and you’re a king of wolves” thing totally cracks me up every time.

3) Raen and Ila do show up in the last book. They are part of the group who are rescuing the injured from the battlefield during the last battle.
 

Megana Vallentin

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

I'm a little behind due to some craziness last week.

Chapter 40: This is I think the only time I wished one of the boys had a title to use. Lord Luc is SO condescending, and every time someone said "LORD Luc" and "Perrin" (no title) in the same sentence, I wanted to jump in and make them give him more respect!

Chapter 41: It's also one of the few times I really like Faile, when they're with the Tinkers and she and Perrin both confess their secrets and talk about how they care about each other. But clearly she didn't understand the seriousness of the wolf dream, since she then tricks him into drinking that potion that knocks him out. :facepalm
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

But clearly she didn't understand the seriousness of the wolf dream, since she then tricks him into drinking that potion that knocks him out. :facepalm

In all fairness, I don't think there is any way she COULD have known. Even if Perrin really explained it to her fully (which I doubt he did) she was concerned about his health, and he really WAS very injured and needed sleep. I'd probably have done the same thing she did. :cheeseeni:
 

Megana Vallentin

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

That's true...I think it bothered me less the first time I read, other than sounding warning bells, but now I dislike Faile so much that it just becomes another mark against her in my book. :giggle
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Why all the Faile hate?! :laugh: I mean, I KNOW why, but I often feel like I'm the only one who actually likes her. :P
 
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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Oh I know why people hate her Imz. :laugh: I just like her anyway. :P
 

Imzadi Hopewind

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

That's ok sweetie :pleased-1: :D

Oh, I just want to whack "lord" Luc for his behaviour in the village after the attack...
 

Ryu Shadowborn

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

Why all the Faile hate?! :laugh: I mean, I KNOW why, but I often feel like I'm the only one who actually likes her. :P

I like Faile when she is acting like a reasonable adult, it is when she(and any female character) act like a generic checklist of the buzzword definition of a "strong" woman that she drives me up a wall.

"This attractive woman who you show zero interest in, and make every effort to not talk to ever flirts with you? I will act like a possessive jealous jerk and BLAME YOU while doing it" sorta crap.
 

Kassina Tendar

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

^ Yyyup, Ryu pretty much summed it up. :cheeseeni:

There are times when I like Faile. Like in the Tinkers' camp, I actually liked her. But then there are times like.... when she bullies Loial into taking her into the Ways. :indifferent:
 

Rhed al'Tere

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Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: The Shadow Rising Chapters 43-49

I don't know if Perrin understands the seriousness of the Wolf Dream. He's still learning it himself.

I'd forgotten how much I love these chapters with Perrin in the Two Rivers. The whole sequence ... I just love it.

Chapter 40

  • It took proof of how awful the Trollocs are to make Perrin's men not hesitate to hunt them (finding the body parts in the pot). I like that finding that hardened their resolve rather than made them run away.
  • Luc must have warned the Trollocs. Perrin finds out later (chapter 43 or 44) that Luc had been in Emond's Field that afternoon. But if Luc physically entered TAR, went to the Myrdraal/Trollocs and told them to change direction, then went back through TAR physically, he could have made the trip and still been in Emond's Field that afternoon.
Chapter 41
  • The Tinkers may disagree with how the Two Rivers folk handle the troubles, but they still drop everything to help them. And it doesn't stop the girls from flirting. :laugh:
  • Tinkers are lost (to the Aiel) because they abandoned their duty to the Aes Sedai.
Chapter 42
  • Who is the renegade Slayer speaks of? Fain?
  • Hahaha: Faile mended Perrin's clothes
  • I love the exchange between Perrin and Faile about the sa'sara. :giggle
Chapter 43
  • Why did Alanna delay so long in coming to Heal Perrin?
 
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