The woman with the Gray hair

Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak · Mar 8, 2013

Madrin Al'Carthon said:
Some people argue that the Borderlander phrase, "May you shelter in the palm of the Creator's hand, and may the last embrace of the mother welcome you home," refers to the Creator and Gaia.

That reference to "mother" in regard to the earth/land is common throughout the series, so I lean toward this theory having some merit.

From early on we see that the Creator doesn't take an active role in the vast majority of things that happen (sort of like the theory about God being like the clockmaker who winds the clock [earth] and then leaves it alone to run), but there IS that voice in TEotW and so to me there HAS to be some sort of follow up from the side of the Creator.

And in keeping with the theme of balance, the Dark Lord is referred to as male (even though he is not really of either gender) so I feel like the Creator should be represented by a female (again, even though the Creator is not of either gender). It just FITS, at least in my mind.

All I can say it, there BETTER be some additional answers about Nakomi in the forthcoming encyclopedia or I will NOT be happy. :grumble

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 9, 2013

Madrin Al'Carthon said:
Some people argue that the Borderlander phrase, "May you shelter in the palm of the Creator's hand, and may the last embrace of the mother welcome you home," refers to the Creator and Gaia.

Jordan would have put in more references than that.

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 9, 2013

Maibella Rhoiden said:
That reference to "mother" in regard to the earth/land is common throughout the series, so I lean toward this theory having some merit.

From early on we see that the Creator doesn't take an active role in the vast majority of things that happen (sort of like the theory about God being like the clockmaker who winds the clock [earth] and then leaves it alone to run), but there IS that voice in TEotW and so to me there HAS to be some sort of follow up from the side of the Creator.

And in keeping with the theme of balance, the Dark Lord is referred to as male (even though he is not really of either gender) so I feel like the Creator should be represented by a female (again, even though the Creator is not of either gender). It just FITS, at least in my mind.

All I can say it, there BETTER be some additional answers about Nakomi in the forthcoming encyclopedia or I will NOT be happy. :grumble

The voice is the Dark One, as confirmed in aMoL.

Eluial Aldaran · Mar 9, 2013

Rhandhal al'Deez said:
Jordan would have put in more references than that.

Not necessarily.

Rhandhal al'Deez said:
The voice is the Dark One, as confirmed in aMoL.

How is it confirmed in AMoL?

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 9, 2013

Eluial Aldaran said:
Not necessarily.

He did for everything else.

How is it confirmed in AMoL?

When he is about to step into Shayol Ghul proper, the DO speaks to him for the first time in the book, and he has a thought line that he's heard that voice once before.

Page 431 in the hardback.

"IT IS TIME. LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN.

The voice spoke with the inevitability of an earthquake, the words vibrating through him. More than sound in the air, far more, the words spoke as if from one soul to another. Moiraine gasped, eyes opening wide. "

Ealandrelle Melyma · Mar 9, 2013

Rhandhal al'Deez said:
When he is about to step into Shayol Ghul proper, the DO speaks to him for the first time in the book, and he has a thought line that he's heard that voice once before.

That's a bit of a stretch to say that this one line confirms that the voice in TEOTW is The Dark One. For all we know this could be a memory from when LTT went to attempt to Seal the Bore.

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 9, 2013

Ealandrelle Melyma said:
That's a bit of a stretch to say that this one line confirms that the voice in TEOTW is The Dark One. For all we know this could be a memory from when LTT went to attempt to Seal the Bore.

That would be reading a lot into it when the simplest explanation makes perfect sense.

Ealandrelle Melyma · Mar 9, 2013

How is your explanation simpler than mine? It's repeatedly mentioned from the moment that Rand has his epiphany on Dragonmount that he has integrated all of LTT's memories. At the moment of re-entering the passageway at Shayol Ghul, upon hearing the Dark One's voice, it would be quite reasonable for him to remember the "first" time he did that.

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 9, 2013

Ealandrelle Melyma said:
How is your explanation simpler than mine? It's repeatedly mentioned from the moment that Rand has his epiphany on Dragonmount that he has integrated all of LTT's memories. At the moment of re-entering the passageway at Shayol Ghul, upon hearing the Dark One's voice, it would be quite reasonable for him to remember the "first" time he did that.

It's never said the the DO ever talked to Lews Therin, though. With my theory, we don't have to add anything not stated in the books.

Ealandrelle Melyma · Mar 10, 2013

It's never said that he talked to LTT, that's true. But it's never stated in the books that the voice in TEOTW was The Dark One either - you're using a circular argument here. Your "proof" that the voice in TEOTW is the Dark One is a one-liner from AMOL about a memory, and you're then using the fact that an unexplained voice appears in TEOTW to "prove" that this is what Rand is remembering. It doesn't work.

Ealandrelle Melyma · Mar 10, 2013

And to complete your quote from AMoL:

"Rand was not surprised. He had heard this voice once before, and he realized he had been expecting it."

That is hardly any kind of conclusive proof that the time he heard it before was in TEOTW. If he'd given a time frame or some kind of situation/background, then fine, I'd happily agree. But he doesn't. I am not saying it's impossible, and I'm not totally disagreeing with your theory. I'm just disagreeing with your conclusive put-down of someone else's theory, based on one line which doesn't really prove anything.

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 10, 2013

Ealandrelle Melyma said:
And to complete your quote from AMoL:

"Rand was not surprised. He had heard this voice once before, and he realized he had been expecting it."

That is hardly any kind of conclusive proof that the time he heard it before was in TEOTW. If he'd given a time frame or some kind of situation/background, then fine, I'd happily agree. But he doesn't. I am not saying it's impossible, and I'm not totally disagreeing with your theory. I'm just disagreeing with your conclusive put-down of someone else's theory, based on one line which doesn't really prove anything.

It reads as conclusive proof to me. *shrugs*

Ealandrelle Melyma · Mar 10, 2013

Conclusive proof means that anyone else should be able to read it and agree, because any other option is disproved by the evidence offered. If that's not the case, then it's just an opinion. An interesting theory, and I can see where you're coming from, but it's not by any means conclusive.

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 10, 2013

Ealandrelle Melyma said:
Conclusive proof means that anyone else should be able to read it and agree, because any other option is disproved by the evidence offered. If that's not the case, then it's just an opinion. An interesting theory, and I can see where you're coming from, but it's not by any means conclusive.

You're right, but I can't see any other theory making as much sense and being so well-supported.

Off-topic: I've been to Scotland

Eluial Aldaran · Mar 12, 2013

Oh, that part. I don't have the book with me so I can't look it up, but I remember reading that passage. I took it to mean the voice that that voice (the AMoL one) was also the Creator, since Rand said he had heard it before. I really can't remember, but is there something in that passage that proves that the AMoL voice is indeed the DO?

Re references to Gaea and other things:

He did for everything else.

No, not everything was fully referenced. Many, MANY things were mentioned in passing that have little or no relation to the story arc(s) of the books themselves. It's what makes for such a full and rich world. The fact that there's a Gaea figure is yet another tie to our world's mythology.

Also, as others have said, the world/earth is often referred to as female or as a mother. So, yeah, actually, there is a reference.

Rhandhal al'Deez · Mar 15, 2013

Eluial Aldaran said:
Oh, that part. I don't have the book with me so I can't look it up, but I remember reading that passage. I took it to mean the voice that that voice (the AMoL one) was also the Creator, since Rand said he had heard it before. I really can't remember, but is there something in that passage that proves that the AMoL voice is indeed the DO?

Re references to Gaea and other things:

No, not everything was fully referenced. Many, MANY things were mentioned in passing that have little or no relation to the story arc(s) of the books themselves. It's what makes for such a full and rich world. The fact that there's a Gaea figure is yet another tie to our world's mythology.

Also, as others have said, the world/earth is often referred to as female or as a mother. So, yeah, actually, there is a reference.

Yes, they do, but nowhere in the series is the Gaia/Earth Mother referred to as a deity. If she was, I think people would call on her like they do the Creator/Light.

Sabriane Diamodred · Apr 7, 2013

I definitely assumed it was Nakomi

Sabriane Diamodred · Apr 7, 2013

In the series, the creator isnt explicity said to be male is he? so It could be "aspects of" the creator

Eluial Aldaran · Apr 8, 2013

Rhandhal al'Deez said:
Yes, they do, but nowhere in the series is the Gaia/Earth Mother referred to as a deity. If she was, I think people would call on her like they do the Creator/Light.

"The Light shine on you and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home"

Also, I'm not sure anyone is advocating that Nakomi/Gaia is another diety. As someone else pointed out, she may just be an aspect of the creator. But to say there's no reference in the books to a Gaia-like concept is factually incorrect.

Matteo al'Snow · Apr 9, 2013

At the time I read Towers of Midnight i assumed that Nakomi was Jenn Aiel and when i read AMoL i also assumed the grey haired lady was Nakomi. Assumptions have a way of being disproved in WoT though IMO

The woman with the Gray hair

More options

Maibella ni Rhoiden t'al'Varrak

Rhandhal al'Deez

Rhandhal al'Deez

Eluial Aldaran

A real gaydin

Rhandhal al'Deez

Ealandrelle Melyma

Rhandhal al'Deez

Ealandrelle Melyma

Rhandhal al'Deez

Ealandrelle Melyma

Ealandrelle Melyma

Rhandhal al'Deez

Ealandrelle Melyma

Rhandhal al'Deez

Eluial Aldaran

A real gaydin

Rhandhal al'Deez

Sabriane Diamodred

Sabriane Diamodred

Eluial Aldaran

A real gaydin

Matteo al'Snow

Share this page