*Spoilers* AMoL Ending Theory Discussion

Depends also on what Hawkwing may have said to her, other than just hi. And she did concede Rand/LTT had precedence over her claim to the lands.

Do you think Hawking actually went and did what Mat asked? I wasn't sure if he just viewed it as an obscure joke from The Gambler.

I'd like to think that Hawkwing might've.

And while Tuon did agree that Rand's claim had precedence, Rand is, for all intents and purposes, gone now. Besides, whatever Tuon thinks is irrelevent, in the long run. Even if she is convinced that they shouldn't push into Randland, there are undoubtedly a lot of High Blood who would see a refusal to do so as a sign of weakness. And whether by age or murder, Tuon will die before long (unless she starts channeling).

Tuon would have to reshape and refocus the entire Empire to prevent it from invading Randland. Change the very core of what the Seanchan are.

Yes, I think he did. He may have thought it a joke, but I still think he went to her.

Hasn't she "started channeling" by training damane? I remember somewhere reading the Sul'dam start seeing weaves after awhile...so to me I would think that is them channeling at some point to gain that skill.

When confronted witht he ability of Sul'dam to learn to be able to channel, Tuon rebuffs it to a point by stating there is a difference between being able to channel and choosing not to versus inately being able to channel. It is a thin line, but I imagine that it would enough to hold onto that custom excluding other circumstances. Mat and Min's influence, her agreement with Egwene to allow any who want to go tot he AS to go, and seeing the AS actions during the last battle all could weaken that stance but could also just as easily be ignored as Mat/Min have little real say, Egwene is dead so she isnt compelled to actually hold to the agreement, and the AS actions could just be played off as a last battle oddity.

The way it is left, Tuon (or any other Seanchen leader who gets lucky and kills her) would be reasonably able to keep thier standard of society as well as cripple the mainlanders at the end of the series. I think this is why RJ had confirmed this was one of the outriggers he definitely had planned that we will unfortunately never see.

Keelinnea Isyne said:

Hasn't she "started channeling" by training damane? I remember somewhere reading the Sul'dam start seeing weaves after awhile...so to me I would think that is them channeling at some point to gain that skill.

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It's more being on the cusp of being able to channel.

[h=4]Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005[/h] DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)
[h=4]Question[/h] Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?
[h=4]Robert Jordan[/h] No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

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The Sul'dam being on the edge of channeling is also exemplified with those two sul'dam Mat encountered (don't remember which book, exactly), who had been captured, and missed using the One Power through damane so much, that they wanted the Aes Sedai (Teslyn, Joline and Edesina, I think) to teach them to channel. When they refused, the sul'dam actually managed to create a weave, which led the Aes Sedai to the conclusion that now she had to be trained, since she'd started channeling. So, very very close to the edge. It really is just a conscious effort away, for those who've been sul'dam for quite a while.

Tazren Talamar said:

The Sul'dam being on the edge of channeling is also exemplified with those two sul'dam Mat encountered (don't remember which book, exactly), who had been captured, and missed using the One Power through damane so much, that they wanted the Aes Sedai (Teslyn, Joline and Edesina, I think) to teach them to channel. When they refused, the sul'dam actually managed to create a weave, which led the Aes Sedai to the conclusion that now she had to be trained, since she'd started channeling. So, very very close to the edge. It really is just a conscious effort away, for those who've been sul'dam for quite a while.

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You mean Bethamin and Seta right?

I'm pretty sure you're imagining the whole missing the One Power business.

As far as I remember Bethamin started to channel when she was under the impression she was in danger from the Aes Sedai, and even then tried to say they didn't want to learn,

Let me see, that would have been early in Knife of Dreams

okay got the passage

“Now would someone like to tell me why you bloody decided to start channeling like it was the Last Battle? Do you have to keep holding them like that, Edesina?” He nodded at Seta and Bethamin. It was only an educated guess, but Edesina’s eyes widened for a moment as if she thought his ter’angreal let him see flows of the Power as well as stop them. In any case, an instant later both women were standing normally. Bethamin calmly began drying her tears with a white linen handkerchief. Seta sat down on the nearest bed, hugging herself and shivering; she looked more shaken than Bethamin.
None of the Aes Sedai seemed to want to answer, so Mistress Anan did it for them. “There was an argument. Joline wanted to go see these Seanchan for herself, and she wouldn’t be argued out of it. Bethamin decided to discipline her, just as if she had no clue what would happen.” The innkeeper shook her head in disgust. “She tried to pull Joline across her lap, with Seta helping her, and Edesina wrapped them up in flows of air. I’m assuming,” she said when the Aes Sedai all looked at her sharply. “I may not be able to channel, but I do use my eyes.”
“That doesn’t account for what I felt,” Mat said. “There was a lot of channeling going on in here.”
Mistress Anan and the three Aes Sedai studied him speculatively, long stares that seemed to probe for the medallion. They were not going to forget about his ter’angreal. that was for sure.
Joline took up the story. “Bethamin channeled. I’ve never before seen the weave she used, but for a few moments, until she lost the Source, she had sparks dancing all over the three of us. I think she may have used as much of the Power as she could draw.”
Sobs suddenly racked Bethamin. She sagged, halfway to falling to the floor. “I didn’t mean to,” she wept, shoulders shaking, face contorted. “I thought you were going to kill me. but I didn’t mean to. I didn’t.” Seta began rocking back and forth, staring at her friend in horror. Or perhaps her former friend. They both knew a’dam could hold them, and maybe any sul’dam, but they might well have denied the full import. Any woman who could use an a’dam could learn to channel. Likely they had tried as hard as they could to deny that hard fact, to forget it. Actually channeling altered everything, however.
Burn him, this was all he needed on top of everything else. “What are you going to do about it?” Only an Aes Sedai could handle this. “Now she’s started, she can’t just stop. I know that much.”
“Let her die,” Teslyn said harshly. “We can keep her shielded until we can be rid of her, then she can die.”
“We can’t do that,” Edesina said, sounding shocked. Though not, apparently, at the thought of Bethamin dying. “Once we let her go, she’ll be a danger to everyone around her.”
“I won’t do it again,” Bethamin wept, almost pleading. “I won’t!”
Pushing past Mat as if he were a coatrack, Joline confronted Bethamin, staring up at the taller woman with her fists on her hips. “You won’t stop. You can’t, once you begin. Oh, you may be able to go months between attempts to channel, but you will try again, and again. and every time, your danger will increase.” With a sigh, she lowered her hands. “You are much too old for the novice book, but there’s nothing for it. We will have to teach you. Enough to make you safe, at least.”
“Teach her?” Teslyn screeched, planting her fists on her hips. “I do say let her die! Do you have any idea how these sul’dam did treat me when they did have me prisoner?”
“No, since you’ve never gone into detail beyond moaning over how horrible it was.” Joline replied dryly, then added in very firm tones. “But I will not leave any woman to die when I can stop it.”
That did not end things, of course. When a woman wanted to argue, she could keep it going if she was by herself, and they all wanted to argue. Edesina joined in on joline’s side, and so did Mistress Anan, just as if she had as much right to speak as the Aes Sedai. Of all things. Bethamin and Seta took Teslyn’s part, denying any wish to learn to channel, waving their hands and arguing as loudly as anyone. Wisely, Mat took the opportunity to slip out of the wagon and pull the door shut behind him softly. No need to remind them of him. The Aes Sedai, at least, would remember soon enough. At least he could stop worrying about where the bloody a’dam were and whether the sul’dam would try using them again. That was well and truly finished, now.

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Ahh, I wasn't sure. Thank you, Axis Gaidin.

Axis m'Troutilas said:

You mean Bethamin and Seta right?

I'm pretty sure you're imagining the whole missing the One Power business.

As far as I remember Bethamin started to channel when she was under the impression she was in danger from the Aes Sedai, and even then tried to say they didn't want to learn,

Let me see, that would have been early in Knife of Dreams

okay got the passage

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Actually, it was Seta I was referring to, not Bethamin.

Knife of Dreams said:

The yellow-haired former sul'dam [Seta] had come round in a spectacular, and painful, fashion. Painful for her and for the sisters. When she first hesitantly asked them to teach her, too, at supper the night before, they refused. They were only teaching Bethamin because she had already channeled. Seta was too old to become a novice, she had not channeled, and that was that. So she duplicated whatever it was that Bethamin had done and had all three leaping about the cookfire and squeling in showers of dancing sparks for as long as she could hold onto the Power. They agreed to teach her then. At least, Joline and Edesina did. Teslyn still was having none of any sul'dam, former or not. All three of them took a hand in switching her, though, and she had spent the morning continually easing herself in her saddle. She still looekd afraid, of the One Power and maybe of the Aes Sedai, but strangely, her face somehow seemed ... content, too. How to understand that was beyond Mat.

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I'm fairly positive it was indicated somewhere that she did it because she missed feeling saidar through the a'dam, but maybe that was just my guess at why she wanted to learn.

Tuon is around 20, so has probably only been training for 4-5 years which is probably too young to have got right to the edge and the stage where she can be held by an a'dam. OTOH, she gets to train whenever she feels like it, so has more opportunity than most sul'dam

Tazren Talamar said:

Actually, it was Seta I was referring to, not Bethamin.

I'm fairly positive it was indicated somewhere that she did it because she missed feeling saidar through the a'dam, but maybe that was just my guess at why she wanted to learn.

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Yes Seta asked later to be taught as well, I don't think we ever learned her motivations for doing so though. I don't rememeber any POV from her about missing saidar. Possible though I guess if you can find the passage.

Perhaps something to do with coming to respect the Aes Sedai, being afraid in a new world and wanting power, wanting to stay with bethamin, or being angry at Seanchan for lying etc.......... could be any number of reasons for her to want to learn really.

Which is interesting as she used the exact same weave that Bethamin did, so she was clearly able to see weaves at this point to be able to learn that as Setalle later suspected during Bethamins training so she must have been right on the edge as well even at that point ready to tip over.

See how much easier these discussions are when we pull out quotes?

Axis m'Troutilas said:

Yes Seta asked later to be taught as well, I don't think we ever learned her motivations for doing so though. I don't rememeber any POV from her about missing saidar. Possible though I guess if you can find the passage.

Perhaps something to do with coming to respect the Aes Sedai, being afraid in a new world and wanting power, wanting to stay with bethamin, or being angry at Seanchan for lying etc.......... could be any number of reasons for her to want to learn really.

Which is interesting as she used the exact same weave that Bethamin did, so she was clearly able to see weaves at this point to be able to learn that as Setalle later suspected during Bethamins training so she must have been right on the edge as well even at that point ready to tip over.

See how much easier these discussions are when we pull out quotes?

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I don't have the time to pull out more quotes now, but I do believe it is mentioned several times that the sul'dam ... well, they don't weave per se, but they can make the damane weave without having to ask, like they can force them to seize saidar with a thought. Doing the same with weaves would require them to know what they look like. IIRC, some sul'dam commented on this somewhere, saying something along the lines of it being an "echo" that sul'dam learned to sense through the a'dam. So they actually know that they can sense the weaves, but they believe it is through the use of the a'dam, not through their own channeling ability.

Ninya Sedai I understand EXACTLY what you're saying and agree. That being said, the book disappointed me a smidge. Just not enough answers darn it.

Ninya Evoneigh said:

For the same reason that the world created in the Matrix was not a beautiful utopia. Humans would not be human if they did not have facets of good and bad. It's just.....I don't know how to explain it. There has to be balance, or humans would cease to progress as a race because they would have no reason to try to improve. The most progressive points in our history occurred when facing great conflict, y'know? By "Killing" that conflict, he would be dooming the human race to eventual extinction no matter what.

That's not the Dark One being an ass, that's just a fact of life.

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Tazren Talamar said:

From Tuon's statements, I've a hard time believing that she cares about the treaty in any way, aside from how it benefits her and the Empire at the moment. I do believe that Mat might be able to talk sense into her - she doesn't feel completely set into the Seanchan ways - but that would be the one thing that might set her straight. And Min, of course.

Without those two, I am completely positive that, at the moment the treaty stops benefiting the Seanchan empire, they'll break it. They don't see themselves as owing anything to anyone else. After all, they live in a society where murder and assassination is an acceptable means of climbing upwards. Not to mention slavery.

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Seanchan people disgust me. I'm glad Mat is going there, because he has a wierd way of making jerks and smug idiots look like fools. If anyone can make Seanchan a land of not-absolute jerkoffs, Mat can.

Raelyn al'Toma said:

Ninya Sedai I understand EXACTLY what you're saying and agree. That being said, the book disappointed me a smidge. Just not enough answers darn it.

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Imperfection generates progress I feel like sums up the reason Randlandians need the DO.

Copy/pasted from this thread to continue the discussion here instead of splitting it up:

Now, they were mere theorists, but they still had knowledge of probably hundreds, if not thousands of years of knowledge of a world influenced by the DO. Rand's knowledge by himself was very limited to basically nothing concerning the DO. Everything he learned was from books of theories, prophecies and Aes Sedai. Those are the same Aes Sedai who thought, for example, that the heroes of the horn would fight for the shadow as well, should they be called by a darkfriend blowing the horn. In other words, he had very limited knowledge about the nature of the DO, so did LTT. The writers of the BWB had a vast knowledge, AND they had resources of research from previous theorists.

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I don't see how you can separate Aes Sedai knowledge from 3rd age scholar knowledge. Aren't they going to be the same? I mean, if you're talking 3000 years of accumulated knowledge (since the breaking), you HAVE to take into account Aes Sedai records, because honestly, that's where the bulk of the saved information is going to come from. Herid Fel and his ilk were not theorizing or researching in a vacuum. You can't simultaneously discount one source of 3rd age knowledge (Aes Sedai) while raising up another (scholars that wrote the BWB).

3rd age scholars got things wrong (Heroes of the Horn is a great example). They were all working on hearsay and speculation. Rand had first hand knowledge from 2 different lives.

If we accept that while the DO is sealed he is unable to touch the pattern, then I fail to see how he can be required for a choice, since we KNOW that people did bad things during the age of legends even before he was rediscovered.

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That is a big, BIG assumption to make, and one that is not in the least supported by cannon, and really depends on what your definition of "touch the pattern" is. Was he able to do things like talk to people directly, or influence dreams, like he did in the 3rd age? Clearly not. But something of his was leaking through, or else Mierin would never have discovered the True Power and drilled the bore in the first place.

You can't equate "sealed away" with "not existing." We KNOW that evil can be done while he's sealed away, and we KNOW that at least some of his essence leaked into the world while he was sealed away. We don't KNOW that if ceased to exist, if evil itself would cease to exist, but we have reason to believe it.

We see this during the book many times - people can choose for themselves if they want to follow the light or be evil, but once they've chosen the DO, their choice becomes limited. So saying that the DO "gives people the choice" makes no sense to me, when all along the books it was the exact opposite - people following him had LESS choices then other people.

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I can't help but feel like you're purposefully mischaracterizing this point. Choice isn't something the DO consciously gives. And the choice isn't just about choosing to follow the light or be evil. It's much more than that.

Look, if there's no CONCEPT of evil, then there's no concept of anything we consider bad -- stealing, lying, cheating, murder, etc -- then people can't do those things. It's not just that people don't want to do those things. It's that they have NO IDEA. It never occurs to them to do so. I know this is an incredibly foreign idea to us. As humans, I don't think we even know what that would possibly be like. The best example I can give is if you've seen the movie The Invention of Lying (if not, read up about it, not gonna summarize it here).

So the choice isn't the DO saying "oh, you're my minion, but do whatever you want." It's his mere existence. I get you don't accept that the DO *is* Evil, not just an evil thing, but even so, you've strawmanned this particular part of the argument enough times that I wanted to make this point clear.

Another example someone gave (not mine, but I liked it) was the evil of Aridhol, or the whole plot with Fain. The evil of Shadar Logoth started BECAUSE of the DO, but it was AGAINST him, not choosing him. It was so against him, that we've seen it used against him in the cleansing of Saidin and the half healing of Rand's wounds. If the DO is the SOURCE of evil, the SOURCE of the choice, then how can there be an evil opposite it's own? Would there now be a choice between 3 options? Does that mean there could be also another choice for good except the maker? What if Rand would have killed the DO but Fain would have survived? Is he not evil? Could people not choose to support him? Those are important questions that no one seems to be able to give me a logical answer to.

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So far, I think this is probably the best point. However, MuKen (above) is quite right. Aridhol's evil still stems from the shadow. It came from peoples' cruelty and mistrust, sparked by Mordeth's advice. Without the dark one, there is no cruelty. I mean, it's not even that "without the dark one, there would have been no armies of the shadow to fight." It's that those emotions that created Mashadar and made Aridhol what it became could never have existed without evil -- there would have been no choice to feel those emotions.

Anyway, if we take the DO's death to be equivalent to being Turned to the Light, then Fain would no longer be evil. He wouldn't have the choice to continue killing or all the other things he does. Mashadar is a tougher question, though. It seems to be a natural (well, magical) entity, now, so maybe its existence is independent of its origin, and it's more like a mindless animal than something actually evil. But I don't know enough about it to feel comfortable saying anything.

Then we have Rand himself, while battling the DO. The fight was most likely no more then a few hours, and the part after he discovered the DO's lie was probably very short, which means there wasn't a lot of time to think about everything.

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He may not have had time to think about it, but we do, and the reasoning he came up with stands: the world without the DO was created by Rand. He wove it in its entirety from the base fabric of possibilities. Those pieces weren't given to him by the DO, so they can't be part of the DO's lies. That reality is what would happen if there were no DO.

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Exactly this. *Rand* is creating those worlds from the pattern. If the DO had woven the threads, then you'd have a point. But he didn't. If we're to accept that a mere human (albeit a many-times-reincarnated one) is able to defeat the DO, then we have to accept that in some capacity or another he is the DO's equal (at least, the equal of the sentient, anthropomorphised part of the DO). He manipulated the pattern, but the pattern itself is neither good nor evil, so it just showed the truth. It's like a mathematical function or a machine -- garbage in, garbage out.

Also copy pasted from other thread

Not to be antagonistic, but individually each of those reasonings seems pretty weak, and to me they don't "add up" to become anything stronger than they are apart.

Aulrick Vendour said:

The best example I gave in the other thread was Harrid Fel - he was Rand's best source of information on the DO, his prison, etc. He was a theorists, I assume one much like those who wrote the BWB, and we know for a fact that Rand indeed listened to him about clearing LTT's seals before attempting to reseal the prison.

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People don't consider a Rand an authority on the subject because of what he studied during his life or who he talked to. They consider him an expert because he was THERE with the DO manipulating reality in the same way and from the same place that the DO does. That gives him a pretty unique perspective that easily places him as the single best person to listen to when discussing the nature of the DO. How can we possibly put more weight to some random scholar who wrote a book and just theorizes with no first-hand experience? The guy has never once even spoken with the DO, that puts him below dozens of other people in terms of how well he understands the DO.

So there are two options - either he can effect the world even when he's sealed, which goes against everything we've been told in the books, or he simply has nothing to do with the choice.

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The third option, and the one I think we are 'supposed' to glean from what we are told at the end of the book, is that the DO is the embodiment of one side of that choice. So of course, being the embodiment of one side, when he takes on his own consciousness, that consciousness' goal is to add an influence to everyone choose that way. And by sealing away that conscious form, they prevent it from exerting its additional influence. That doesn't make it no longer what it is: the embodiment of that side of that choice.

Another example someone gave (not mine, but I liked it) was the evil of Aridhol, or the whole plot with Fain. The evil of Shadar Logoth started BECAUSE of the DO, but it was AGAINST him, not choosing him. It was so against him, that we've seen it used against him in the cleansing of Saidin and the half healing of Rand's wounds. If the DO is the SOURCE of evil, the SOURCE of the choice, then how can there be an evil opposite it's own?

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Aridhol isn't the opposite of the DO, Aridhol opposes the DO. Those are two very different things. Aridhol is itself a part of the DO, they said early on in the books that they used the "Shadow's own tactics" against them. It's no different from having the DO's own True Power turned on himself at the end of the series.

Then we have Rand himself, while battling the DO. The fight was most likely no more then a few hours, and the part after he discovered the DO's lie was probably very short, which means there wasn't a lot of time to think about everything.

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He may not have had time to think about it, but we do, and the reasoning he came up with stands: the world without the DO was created by Rand. He wove it in its entirety from the base fabric of possibilities. Those pieces weren't given to him by the DO, so they can't be part of the DO's lies. That reality is what would happen if there were no DO.

Eluial said:

I don't see how you can separate Aes Sedai knowledge from 3rd age scholar knowledge.

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I'm not sure seperating them is the right word... I'm absolutly sure that there are Aes Sedai, I imagine from the brown Ajah, that have vast knowledge on the subject. That is, after all, their job. I just can't recall any of them actually teaching it to Rand.
I also agree that the theorists didn't work in a vaccume. In fact, RJ told us that they had vast knowledge from this age and the previous one. This just proves my point that it's reasonable to assume that they had information Rand did not (as I've explained that Rand had no such knowledge, and LTT lived most of his life WITHOUT the DO, and then at war with him, not exactly researching his nature).

3rd age scholars got things wrong (Heroes of the Horn is a great example). They were all working on hearsay and speculation. Rand had first hand knowledge from 2 different lives.

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Like I've said, that's just not true. LTT had no experience that would give him insight at the nature of the DO. Most of his life he was absent, then they were at war with him. We've seen nowhere in the books any indication that he has such insight.
Rand, too, had but one experience, at the last battle, and as I've explained and will also show in this messege, that experience is... Problematic... At best.

That is a big, BIG assumption to make, and one that is not in the least supported by cannon, and really depends on what your definition of "touch the pattern" is. Was he able to do things like talk to people directly, or influence dreams, like he did in the 3rd age? Clearly not. But something of his was leaking through, or else Mierin would never have discovered the True Power and drilled the bore in the first place.

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Actually, that's not described like that ANYWHERE. Lanfear discovered the power not because it "leaked" into the pattern. She discovered a place where the pattern was "thinner." How she sensed the power behind it was never revealed.
Also, it's not a big assumption to make. It's being told to us half the series, plain as day. The DO couldn't touch the world before the bore was created. It was repeated again and again.

You can't equate "sealed away" with "not existing." We KNOW that evil can be done while he's sealed away, and we KNOW that at least some of his essence leaked into the world while he was sealed away. We don't KNOW that if ceased to exist, if evil itself would cease to exist, but we have reason to believe it.

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We also have reason to believe that it will keep existing without him. That's the whole point. Rand BELIEVES evil will not exist. That's a belief, not a fact.

I can't help but feel like you're purposefully mischaracterizing this point. Choice isn't something the DO consciously gives. And the choice isn't just about choosing to follow the light or be evil. It's much more than that.

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Of course it is, which is why it surprised me so much to see it reduced to this level at the end of the book. As if killing the DO will make people stop choosing to do bad things. That makes no sense, since we know they did bad things WITHOUT his influence during the AoL.

Look, if there's no CONCEPT of evil, then there's no concept of anything we consider bad -- stealing, lying, cheating, murder, etc -- then people can't do those things.

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I agree. But the assumption that the DO is what gives the concept of evil in the world is, IMHO, just wrong. He's not the concept. A concept is not a living, physical thing. It's an understanding. But you just said that we shouldn't reduce the DO to "giving" people the choice of good vs. evil. If he's a concept, an understanding, then that's EXACTLY what it's reduced to.

It's not just that people don't want to do those things. It's that they have NO IDEA. It never occurs to them to do so.

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What you're saying is, basically, that a starving man about to die will not consider stealing food in order to survive, because the DO doesn't exist. And that makes sense to you? And I don't want to hear "without the DO no one will starv" explanations. It's a theoretical question. You're saying people will die, simply because they can't consider taking food that doesn't belong to them? I find that hard to understand, and I doubt that's what RJ had intended. It's extreme. Not impossible, it just sounds unlikely to me.

So the choice isn't the DO saying "oh, you're my minion, but do whatever you want." It's his mere existence. I get you don't accept that the DO *is* Evil, not just an evil thing, but even so, you've strawmanned this particular part of the argument enough times that I wanted to make this point clear.

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I understood the point, it simply makes little sense to me.
Also, again - the DO is not *evil*, since we know that he's a physical being. Rand held him in his hand. It may have been a metaphore, a way for Rand to understand what he's doing, but how does one hold a concept in one's hand? Does he delete a concept from everyone's mind? That makes NO SENSE!

Aridhol's evil still stems from the shadow. It came from peoples' cruelty and mistrust, sparked by Mordeth's advice. Without the dark one, there is no cruelty.

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That's only true if you accept your explanation above, which I already showed you I do not accept, on the basis that it makes no sense.

Anyway, if we take the DO's death to be equivalent to being Turned to the Light, then Fain would no longer be evil.

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Not only am I not saying that's remotly the same, I'm also saying that many people that live in the light still have emotions that could be considered evil. Do you think all killers are dark friends? Did no one kill out of ambition? Love? Think about Abu Dar and all the duals if you want to understand my point.

Exactly this. *Rand* is creating those worlds from the pattern. If the DO had woven the threads, then you'd have a point. But he didn't. If we're to accept that a mere human (albeit a many-times-reincarnated one) is able to defeat the DO, then we have to accept that in some capacity or another he is the DO's equal (at least, the equal of the sentient, anthropomorphised part of the DO). He manipulated the pattern, but the pattern itself is neither good nor evil, so it just showed the truth. It's like a mathematical function or a machine -- garbage in, garbage out.

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Not only do we have no reason to assume that the pattern just "showed the truth," we know for a fact that's not the case. First of all, not all those possible realities can be the future, which means for sure some of them are "lies," in the sense that they are possibilities imagined by Rand and the DO, not an accurate description of what will come to pass should certain things happen.
Secondly, we are told by Rand himself, in a quote I already brought in this thread, that this reality is how HE SEES the world without the DO, not the way the world would be without him. Rand, I agree, is in no condition there to know exactly how this works. He works instinctively, with no time to think, etc. Which means he could be wrong and those are infact accurate descriptions... But we have no reason to assume that, because of what I said before.
You assume, basically, that Rand and the DO create a future pattern, but the pattern itself shows them the result of the choices they created in the pattern they wove... That's a HUGE assumption to make, with no basis. It's a theory. Could be true. Could be false. It's an "if". If it works this way, then sure, you're right. If it doesn't then you're wrong. It's an assumption. And just like you choose to assume your assumption is true, I choose to believe that mine is. It's all theory in the end, 'till we get some more information about this "choice" idea that popped out in the last book. I hope there is word on that in the encyclopedia that's being written now.