2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos

Feel free to jump in and start reading here, or start discussing here!

Page ranges for LoC start at 26 (the last week) and go up to 115 (week 3).

Please note: There will be no "assigned" reading the week of December 27. Holidays tend to be busy for a lot of people, and I for one am traveling a lot the week of Christmas, so I'm granting a free week. :P We will start book 7 on January 3.

Oct 18: Pro-2
Oct 25: 3-7
Nov 1: 8-13
Nov 8: 14-19
Nov 15: 20-27
Nov 22: 28-33
Nov 29: 34-41
Dec 6: 42-48
Dec 13: 49-54
Dec 20: 55, Epilogue

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Please don't wait on me to get started. I'm running a week behind, but I hope to have reading time this weekend as I travel to Fall Ball and get all caught up.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

I've been busy, so I'll read the weeks chapter tomorrow (I've got day off! :dance)

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Nice!

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

OH! Next book! Time to get back in the groove! (Seriously, I finished book 5 a month and a half ago...darn boring flight.)

Really looking forward to the things that happen in this book.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

LoC Pro

Demandred – We get the first glimpse of The Dark one and the pit of doom, which is a little different from what we see later on in AmoL, there is a big lava pit. We find a little about how Myrddraal swords are forged, apparently quenched in the corruption of the dark one himself, which I understand but why the whole “stab a living being” thing.

I also wonder what metal they use for Dark-Forged blades.

Nynaeve - Nynaeve Studies Stilling, and I wonder how something like this was not more studied especially in the age of legends. Then again with the Rods of Dominion Severing was not probably a common occurrence, especially since tar'angreal were more well documented so you would not generally get ones that accidentally severed someone.

Elayne – And the first 2/3rds of the trio that owns rand is hammered out

Faile – Perrin feels Ta'veren tugging at him so they gather the forces of the Two Rivers and leave.

LoC 1

Rand – Someone as smart as Bashere should know that even with the Power, Aiel and Saldaeans there to protect him something may end up getting to him anyways. *cough* Semmhiarge

LoC 2

Rand has a real moment of madness here, and Taim is a scumbag. Did anyone trust him at all the first time they read this?

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Uh, no. Taim was always very clearly an evil b@$t@rd. I was convinced since he titled himself M'Hael that he was a Darkfriend. He did surprise me in Towers of Midnight, though!

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Heh, myself I was a little wary of him being a Darkfriend because it seemed too obvious that he was evil.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Ryu, that's where I was on the whole Taim thing. It seemed super obvious that he was evil, but it almost seemed too obvious. I also found myself wanting him to be a good guy just 'cause that would've made things much easier for Rand!

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

I have to admit, I did not see that Taim was evil in the first read-through I mean, in hindsight it is obvious, but I am a bit of naivë person, and thus I trust people until they give me reason not to Taim gave me reason not to at around "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" but even then I wasn't sure, it could just have been a Red Herring

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Is this the first monster prologue? Man it just went on and on!

Kassina Tendar said:

Ryu, that's where I was on the whole Taim thing. It seemed super obvious that he was evil, but it almost seemed too obvious. I also found myself wanting him to be a good guy just 'cause that would've made things much easier for Rand!

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This is how I felt too.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Prologue-Ch 2

Ryu Shadowborn said:

. We find a little about how Myrddraal swords are forged, apparently quenched in the corruption of the dark one himself, which I understand but why the whole “stab a living being” thing.

I also wonder what metal they use for Dark-Forged blades.

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I always took from that scene that the blade was made from the person or at least their soul, because of the fading of their voices as if they were getting further and further away.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 3-7

After reading more about Taim this week, I remember being (and still am!) really annoyed that we couldn't tell more of what's going on in his head. He showed up to meet Rand and Rand plops him in command of all these dudes. Didn't even really ask if he was interested, just ordered him to do it. And he seemed genuinely shaken by the thought of a Forsaken showing up incognito, but is that an indicator that he wasn't evil yet or just that he was worried about meeting a badder evil than himself? Argh.

So next...time for Mat! :joy Wow he's changed so much. In the early books, I kinda pictured him like Ron Weasley. Every time he was brave, he also looked terrified. But now here he is, commanding armies, no more protesting that he can't do it.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 3-7

After reading more about Taim this week, I remember being (and still am!) really annoyed that we couldn't tell more of what's going on in his head. He showed up to meet Rand and Rand plops him in command of all these dudes. Didn't even really ask if he was interested, just ordered him to do it. And he seemed genuinely shaken by the thought of a Forsaken showing up incognito, but is that an indicator that he wasn't evil yet or just that he was worried about meeting a badder evil than himself? Argh.

So next...time for Mat! :joy Wow he's changed so much. In the early books, I kinda pictured him like Ron Weasley. Every time he was brave, he also looked terrified. But now here he is, commanding armies, no more protesting that he can't do it.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 3-7

Prologue:
-It's got to be so weird for the Forsaken to wake up to find that everything you knew about the world is different. Not only is everything much less advanced technologically, but even the land itself is completely different. Your hometown could be on the bottom of an ocean. Shayol Ghul apparently used to be 'an idyllic island in a cool sea'.
-The forgers themselves are some sort of shadowspawn, though not truly alive.
-Myrddraal blade creation is super creepy.
-It's cool that Elayne's really figuring out the details of how ter'angreal are made.
-Sul'dam can actually control a damane's channeling. Of course, sul'dam don't, since they don't know how to control channeling. Instead, they use the link to only 'allow' the damane to channel what the sul'dam wants her to.
-Elayne is shocked that she isn't allowed to visit Caemlyn. I can understand why they don't want her to go, but I definitely sympathize with Elayne here. I mean, she's the future queen of Andor and, given what she's heard about strife in Andor, she undoubtedly wants to go home an see her mom. (this is before she finds out Morgase is 'dead', right?) Plus she wants to see Rand. And despite any ulterior motives for seeing Rand, she is correct when she says that he'd be more likely to listen to her than a random Aes Sedai. Though Min can fulfill that role, as well.
-Again Elayne thinking that she has no choice but to join the Green Ajah because she wants to have two Warders.
-Interesting that Aes Sedai and Gaidin always have images in Min's viewings. It does make sense in this time period given the upcoming battle at the Tower and the Last Battle, but it does make me wonder if it's something about Aes Sedai/Gaidin themselves that makes them always have a viewing. If Min were around like 50 or 100 years ago, would those Aes Sedai/Gaidin also always have viewings associated with them?
-More talk about well-turned calves.
-I love that mothers send their children to Loial to read to them. That just makes me happy.
-I get where Faile's coming from with trying to make Perrin behave as a proper lord, but the thing with having his childhood friend as his footman has got to be weird for him. Of course he'll go smoke and chat with Gwil sometimes. They're friends!
-Ugh... Gawyn... :rolleyes And he's so proud of the fact that Siuan might still be Amyrlin if not for him and the Younglings. Though he does have to hide that he let Siuan escape from Elaida.
-Gawyn thinks that they're going to 'ask' Rand to accompany them. It doesn't seem like he expects Rand to decline the honor. (I'm sure the Aes Sedai feel the same)
-It's weird that Red Aes Sedai as a whole apparently 'hate men'. Perhaps it's just a stereotype, since we do see normal, nice Reds, but just 'cause you want to stop the world being destroyed by another Breaking doesn't necessarily mean you hate men. There are surely people in Red who feel passionate about the former, but wouldn't at all agree with the latter.
-Gawyn has heard that Rand brought the Aiel over the Spine of the World to 'ravage Cairhien' again. :rolleyes I can see why Gawyn feels the way he does about Rand (given the rumors flying around about him), but it's frustrating.
-The peddler Gawyn meets tries to sound all knowledgeable and brave by saying he wishes there were Aiel around to trade with, but he obviously doesn't actually.
-Everyone is so certain the Aiel are 'brutish savages'.
-The Aes Sedai are hoping the Shaido will kill Gawyn, so they can both get rid of him and not have the Tower blamed for it.
-It's interesting that the Ajahs hide who the leader of their Ajah is. So much plotting among Aes Sedai.
-I hadn't realized Sevanna not only had never been to Rhuidean, but also was never an apprentice Wise One.
-As a result, Sevanna knows no more than anyone else about the history of the Aiel and even doubts that the Aiel ever served the Aes Sedai.
-Morgase thinks that it's almost as if Gaebril used the One Power on her, but obviously that's impossible.
-Jen is apparently a guy's name in WoT.
-The Rebel Aes Sedai are lucky that Pedron Niall thinks that Salidar is just a Dragon-supporting group from the White Tower. If he realized they actually were a split in the Tower, he would've led his Whitecloaks in.

Niall did not consider himself another Artur Hawkwing, but he was what the world had.

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:rolleyes He's pretty arrogant, severely misguided, and I don't agree with his methods, but I will at least grant him that his intents are noble.
-Mesaana is behind bringing Rand to the Tower. She plans to have him where she can safely reach him and helpless.
-Aginor thinks that his name was 'given in scorn and adopted in pride'... what does 'Aginor' mean? :scratch

Chapter 1:
-How is Rand so amazing with a sword so that he actually has to pay to get people to come in and still wins against these people 5v1? Is it something residual from his life as Lews Therin? Is the void really that powerful and so few people know of it? I mean, I get that Lan's a great teacher and that Rand's pretty natural at it, but wow, this just seems sudden.
-The Aelfinn told Rand that to live, he must die.

Chapter 2:
-The voice in Rand's head raves about killing Taim. Good advice!
-Rand loses control of himself enough to almost smash one of the seals.
-...because Lews Therin is also insistent about breaking the seals. It turns out to be a good idea, but he really shouldn't do it until he's ready.
-I love Bashere's reaction when Rand tries to break the seal. "I don't know what that is, but I think maybe you shoudl wait before deciding to break it. Eh?" :rofl
-Taim must be confused when Rand starts talking about taking him to a farm.
-We hear about gholam for the first time, though not yet what they are.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 3-7

@ Ryu re blades:
One should pass over this scene as one of RJ's less brilliant ideas. It is based on a purpotedly Arabic medieval recipe for making swords - „put the sword ino a strong slave, it will inherit its strength“. I doubt the origin of this and I doubt it was ever acted upon – strong, useful slaves were never exactly cheap.
One reason against it (proffered by Toral Delvar some time ago): There must be a large number of these swords (and not only myrdraal got one, but also at least some trollocs, as seen with Tam in EotW), so the number of victims necessary would be inordinately large as well (think of 50.000 to 1.000.000 swords, this would quite depopulate the borderlands; a reasonable guess about the whole population of Randland puts it at less than 10m).
And then, as we learn here, these swords have something like a use by-date? „Their blades failed after a time and had to be replaced.“ That drives the numbers up even more. And „failed“ in what sense? Were they no longer – or less - poisonous, or did they just break? I guess it must be the former; this would help to explain the different consequences of wounds seen with Tam al'Thor, Dailin, and Talmanes.
What metal they were made of? Umh, steel – or what haphardly put together iron with some added carbon went as steel those days. We have to accept that the DO isn't omniscient, and that especially his scientific eduation is just on the level of this age. So no fancy alloys, there were none of the chemical / metallurgical techniques available to create them – even if something like adding Cr, V, Ni, Mn would help here. A sword must be elastic AND very hard at the edge; the Japanese, #1 swordsmiths in real life, solved this dilemma by a special process of tempering.

Another thought: After the battle of Emond's Field, there must be quite a lot of trolloc and myrdraal weapons in Master Luhan's back yard. While trolloc axes etc. (and if not at Thakan'kar, where were they made?) definitely need downsizing for human use, swords are more or less ready for use and easily recyclable. So do we have some fighters for the Light with the DO's weapons? And if there is one left over, may I have one?

@ the Shaido: A wonderful intercultural misunderstanding? Yes, but this is just the surface of it; even without that, the Shaido never meant to keep the treaty they made with the Aes Sedai. (And WHO made the the connection between these unlike parties first of all? Some DF channels?)
Yes, Sevanna was never to Rhuidean, has never passed through the rings. But then, Thevara and the others have, and Sevanna could not do much without their support; how comes they have no idea that the path they are on will lead to defeat and destruction in the long run? Blinded by the vision of power & glory, of becomng the dominant clan among the Aiel (they seem to be the largest clan anyway, and even after Dumai's Wells and Malden they are anything but extinct)? This was certainly the case, but it is not a sufficient explanation. Maybe by following Couladin, the fake Car'a'carn, and rejecting Rand, they competely left the lifeline tracks the rings showed them.
The Aiel will have to change, and what Sevanna has in mind is more or less an imitation of the Wetlander model of social organization – feudalism, rule by an elite legitimated through inheritance. Basically not unreasonable – that's how the wandering tribes of Europe turned into nations – but she's taking on too much risk. But could that be a model for the future of the Aiel in general? Or will they be able to keep some of the egalitarian spirit they have at the moment?

@ the embassy to Rand: They are no means convinced that Rand will come willingly to Tar Valon, they have their plan B. And we, the readers, know right from the start that this will go horribly wrong, especially with the Shaido involved.
And Gawyn … I was never really impressed by Elayne's intelligence – too impulsive, too many questionable decisions – but her little brother … thinking with the hair on his chest?

@ Chapter 1: My only thought of it was that it contains quite a number of portraits of the Andoran nobility, might be useful to get back to in the course of the Andoran succession crisis (my weak point, can't make myself care for how Elayne becomes queen).

@ Taim: Yes, he's so clearly marked as evil one is tempted to doubt it. However, one could defend him, could say that he just tries to negotiate with Rand, tries to get the best deal available. And his argument that he's been loger in the business of channelling Saidin, that he's got more knowledge (probably) and definitely more experience is not actually bad. Neither is his insolence - „if I had taken Callandor, historians would find me a fitting birthplace“ without some truth in it, kind of made me smile.
And Rand – struggling with Lew Therin in his head, „Kill him! Kill him!“ - treats him everything but fairly – more of this in the subsequent chapters, while Taim still is seen as faithfully following the orders Rand gave him.

Somewhere in AMoL Demandred says or thinks that he has turned Taim to the Shadow. We will never learn WHEN exactly that happened - before he went to Rand or after, when he had been given ample reason to be pissed with the way Rand treats him. By TPoD, Taim had taken on some of Demandred's mannerisms (I'm sure Jordan thought of the Taimandred speculation beforehand and sort of encouraged it), and then, of course, had openly turned against Rand and begun to organize his loyal disciples into an army for the Shadow.
There is a nice parallel here – Rand, in AMoL, thinks that if he (Lews Therin in the AoL) had been nicer to Demandred, Demandred might not have turned to the Shadow. Umh, perhaps. Then if he (Rand, this age) had been nicer to Taim, would that have prevented Taim turning …? Would have simplified matters, and that's just the opposite of what Jordan had in mind ...

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 3-7

Chapter 3:
-Rand makes the potential Asha'man introduce themselves to Taim before he even tests them. Taim really is right about it. It makes no sense to do introductions when a lot of them won't even be staying around.
-Rand corrects a mistake the Aes Sedai made in their Tower. He allows men to bring their families with them and, unlike Aes Sedai, actually encourages them to have a family and not shut themselves away from them.
-Taim explains about detecting someone's ability to channel out loud in order to help Rand learn it. Rand is a really fast learner and picks it up on the first try and faster than Taim does. He is rather rude to Taim, though.
-Rand's talking about cleansing saidin
-Rand loses control more and more often. He doesn't even realize he's grabbed saidin (through the angreal, too) until Taim releases it himself.
-Rand seriously thinks that Aviendha has 'no emotional tangles' about Rand and that she's still getting close to him because of the Wise Ones and Elayne.
-Two Rivers sayings: Men believe the worst easily, and women believe it hides something still darker. Also, A woman's eyes cut deeper than a knife.

Chapter 4:
-None of the Maidens wear the red siswai'aman headbands. Because the maidens already carry the car'a'carn's honor?
-I love Aiel humor. :rofl I like the exchange between the Thunder Walker and Enaila. And the image of him 'leaping into the air, kicking a soft knee-high boot higher than Rand's head' before his part of the exchange. The Maidens are confused that Rand didn't find Enaila funny and wonder whether he has a sense of humor.
-And then he tells a 'joke'... which I have to agree with the Aiel on. It's not funny. Sounds more like a moral lesson than a joke.
-The Aiel are certain the water must be the point of Rand's 'joke' and are confused that he didn't tell them what happened with the pond. :rofl :rofl
-Rand's a good leader and is good at inspiring devotion sometimes. The Defenders of the Stone who fought with him when Bel'al attacked are so proud when Rand tells them "The Stone still stands." It's a simple thing, said in passing while passing into the tent, but it cements the Defenders even more to his cause.
-Wheel of Time has both Jak o' the Shadows and Jak o' the Mists.
-Rand refuses to even execute a woman for treason... which is the law in Tear. As I've said, I can see where he's coming from with some of his "I don't want to kill women" stuff, but that's just weird, Rand. He changes his command so that the rebels are allowed to surrender to avoid execution.
-Rand is aware of tel'aran'rhiod without knowing what it is. He only knows how to enter it in the flesh.
-I want to hear the Aiel stories of 'a woman stabbing her husand by accident' and 'a man ending up married to the sister of the woman he wanted to marry'. Those sound funny. Sorry, Rand, the Aiel win for sense of humor.
-Aiel men apparently offer to brush/wash women's hair? And offering to wash a woman's hair is much more forward than offering to brush her hair.
-I love the Maidens' reactions to Rand's attempts at humor. "I am sure it was a good joke, but you must explain it to us."
-I really want to see Rand take the Maidens' advice and act all shy while asking Aviendha to scrape his back in the sweat tent, then dance all around naked before he goes to bed and get really embarrassed when he 'realizes' Aviendha's there.

Chapter 5:
-This quote sums up Mat's luck pretty well: "A series of steps, each taken for good cause or pure necessity, each seeming so reasonable at the time, and each leading to things he had never imagined."
-He promises himself to always watch what he does and never jump into things without thinking. Sorry, Mat, I know you mean that promise, but you're ta'veren attached to a stronger ta'veren with crazy luck... that's not going to happen.
-Mat's memories only extended until the final battle of Hawkwing's rise. Is that perhaps about the time that people stopped using the doorframe ter'angreal?
-Who first chose the name 'Band of the Red Hand' for Mat's army? Mat certainly didn't choose it.
-Mat thinks that a gleeman would give up a hand before his gleeman's cloak. I hope that's exaggeration! I realize the cloaks are personalized and you probably grow rather attached to it, but it's also just a patched cloak and pretty replaceable. You can't really do a lot of gleeman stuff with only one hand.
-Rand Travels right into Mat's bedroom. He's obviously very distracted at the time, but that's super dangerous! He could have killed Mat! (unless Rand was hoping Mat's luck would protect him)
-Rand mentions something about a voice in his head and Mat's freaked out for a moment thinking he's talking about him.
-Olver! :joy
-It's apparently difficult to tell the ages of Ciarhienin children.
-Poor Edorion, forced to take care of Olver. -
-Mat's good with children. He apologizes for talking down to Olver.
-Mat thinks that, according to his memories, there's less known of the Atha'an Miere than of any people except the Aiel. Really? What about the Seanchan and Sharans?

Chapter 6:
-We hear a decent amount about Sharan culture here, especially considering how little we hear about it over all throughout all 14 books. Apparently this part didn't stick in my head well enough so that, by the time Demandred shows up later with Sharans, as far as I was concerned, we knew nothing about them.
-Plots and plots among the Forsaken.
-Graendal tries to aim Sammael directly at Rand.
-Graendal was instructed to send trollocs and myrddraal to the Stone of Tear to fight the ones attacking Rand.
-We know that the Forsaken have orders not to kill Rand. But SAmmael thinks that destroy al'Thor once he attacks wouldn't violate the Dark One's commands. I wonder what the specific commands are then. Are they then allowed to kill Rand only if he attacks them first?
-It's shocking (and understandably so!) for the Forsaken how much the Aiel have changed since they were locked in the Bore. Yeah, that's got to be kind of unbelievable for anyone who grew up in the Age of Legends.
-Graendal mentions the binding (with a binding rod) that was offered to her for her crimes rather than stilling. She says that, with the binding, she would 'see the end of life approach'. Do all binding rods then decrease someone's life expetancy?
-No one knows how Myrddraal disappear into shadows. Aginor did extensive testing on Myrddraal and couldn't figure anything out. Even the Myrddraal don't know.

Chapter 7:
-Carlinya's worried that Egwene will be too easily guided by people other than them.
-Every Ajah has eyes-and-ears except for White. Interesting that White doesn't have one. Do they just not care enough about what goes on in the outside world?
-There's fighting in Shienar and Arafel. What fighting? Why?
-News of bubbles of evil
-Lots of rumors of where Morgase is (if she's alive) and Elayne thinks that surely Amidicia of all places is unthinkable as a place her mother would go to.
-Elaida thinks the ruling house of Andor is the key. Because of her foretelling.
-Elayne sees the dragon throne and the lion throne above it and is worried about what Rand's doing. Worried that he doesn't know what he's doing and is going to mess things up. Demandred misinterprets her expression/what she said, though, and thinks she's worried about Rand taking over Andor.
-the dream ter'angreal that make you misty were originally made for training beginner students.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 8-13

Elayne knew about her mother's "dead" before the group were sent to Cairhien/Rand.

Mat didn't know anything about Seachan, because noone entered the door frame AFTER the nation were created.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 8-13

Gahh the story is getting so good, I'm having trouble holding myself back!

I'm really surprised that the Aes Sedai continue to let Elayne and Nynaeve go to Tel'Aran'Rhiod. Even if the girls were more knowledgeable than the AS at the beginning, by now I would have expected them to put a stop to it.

The line about Myrelle seriously wanting Nynaeve's block broken makes so much more sense now, I never noticed that before.

Rand's meeting with all of the Two Rivers girls always makes me sad. Each read-through, I'm sad that only Perrin made it back there, that Mat and Rand aren't more interested in at least the news about what might be happening in their home, and also that their father's get so little info about what's happening to their sons. The scene ended so poorly for everyone, though I was impressed with how Verin and Alanna (other than the bonding) treated Rand. They immediately acted like he was an equal rather than a silly farm boy.

I also always somehow missed the part about Alanna losing a Warder, or maybe I read it but it wasn't until much later that I fully realized what effect that would have had on her so it didn't stick in my mind until now. The amount of books where I was wondering why she was sad all the time... :P Jeez.

Re: 2015 Re-Readalong: Lord of Chaos, Chapters 8-13

I think Alanna lost her warder before Perrin came back to Two Rivers right. I always wanna smack Alanna for what she did to Rand there, bonding him without agreeing?!! :facepalm No wonder Rand got mad!