Why Ishamael is wrong: The Nature of the Pattern and the Dark One

[MuKen]

I think you missed my response to that. He's did NOT "begin doing it again". Each battle for him is separated from all the rest, because they all spawn from the same thing. The DO touches the Wheel once, and that touch places him into each Bore in each turning. But the DO's experience in turn X is not followed up by his experience in turn X+1, that experience ended when he got sealed.

It's like if in Star Trek somebody stepped into the teleporter and there was some techno-babble accident that caused his teleporter signal to be sent through time to 1800, 1900, and 2000 all from the same accident. And in each of those times he had an adventure that ended with him getting ejected from the space-time continuum altogether. Would the adventure in 1900 begin with the memories from the adventure in 1800? No, because they both started from the same event. They are now completely separated adventures.

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

I think you missed my response to that. He's did NOT "begin doing it again". Each battle for him is separated from all the rest, because they all spawn from the same thing. The DO touches the Wheel once, and that touch places him into each Bore in each turning. But the DO's experience in turn X is not followed up by his experience in turn X+1, that experience ended when he got sealed.

It's like if in Star Trek somebody stepped into the teleporter and there was some techno-babble accident that caused his teleporter signal to be sent through time to 1800, 1900, and 2000 all from the same accident. And in each of those times he had an adventure that ended with him getting ejected from the space-time continuum altogether. Would the adventure in 1900 begin with the memories from the adventure in 1800? No, because they both started from the same event. They are now completely separated adventures.

That is not backed up by anything from the books. While it is possible that this is the case, I see no fundamental evidence suggesting that the DO only has one experience rather than a succession of experiences, which by diction used in LoC seems to be the case.

 

[MuKen]

It follows exactly from what we are told in the books. We are told time is a Wheel. We are told you don't experience time when outside of it. Therefore, from the Outside view, the DO only touched the Wheel in one place, because all the repeated Bores are the same point on the wheel. We are told that touching the Pattern is what gave the DO his experience of time. Therefore, exactly like I said, every single one of those experiences stems from the same source.

If it were a succession of experiences, then there is no answer to the very simple and obvious question: Why didn't the DO withdraw the TP from Moridin before allowing him into the cave at the end?

 

[AnAnonymousWOTFan]

It follows exactly from what we are told in the books. We are told time is a Wheel. We are told you don't experience time when outside of it. Therefore, from the Outside view, the DO only touched the Wheel in one place, because all the repeated Bores are the same point on the wheel. We are told that touching the Pattern is what gave the DO his experience of time. Therefore, exactly like I said, every single one of those experiences stems from the same source.

If it were a succession of experiences, then there is no answer to the very simple and obvious question: Why didn't the DO withdraw the TP from Moridin before allowing him into the cave at the end?

You are saying that the DO experiences one event because the Bore occurs at one place. This equation is never expressly stated in the books. Second, that question I have asked previously. The only conclusion is that the LB goes different every time, unless BS will give us an answer in the future.

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

Eluial actually hit on something with her joke about theoretical quantum physics. I would like to point out that RJ's field of specialty was, indeed, physics. His interest in the subject is quite rampantly clear throughout the books, though most specifically and obviously in how Gateways work.

Therefore, it would not surprise me in the least (and would make me pretty happy) if MuKen's theory is exactly right.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

Eluial actually hit on something with her joke about theoretical quantum physics. I would like to point out that RJ's field of specialty was, indeed, physics. His interest in the subject is quite rampantly clear throughout the books, though most specifically and obviously in how Gateways work.

Therefore, it would not surprise me in the least (and would make me pretty happy) if MuKen's theory is exactly right.

I did not actually know that RJ was a physicist, but my comment there was only partly tongue in cheek. I was seriously about to pull out the dual nature of light (particle v wave) next, if people didn't like the pie analogy. Not as obviously comparable in some ways, but in other ways pretty much hits the nail on the head.

But that is awesome to know! I feel even more convinced, now.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

What evidence exists anywhere for the proposition that the DO and Creator aren't subject to linear time in their own frame? The Dark One desires a change. Change by definition requires two different points in the same timeframe. The pattern is not broken in the Dark One's perception of his present, and he wants it to BECOME broken in his perception of the future. The fact that the Wheel creates a Pattern that has its own nested circular timeframe has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that the Dark One experiences his own Past, Present, and Future at separate times. That Pattern is merely a subset of the Universe.

 

[MuKen]

You are saying that the DO experiences one event because the Bore occurs at one place. This equation is never expressly stated in the books. Second, that question I have asked previously. The only conclusion is that the LB goes different every time, unless BS will give us an answer in the future.

If there is more than one Bore on the Wheel, the theory remains the same. The point is that it is a Wheel, and therefore there are not an infinite number of them when viewed from the outside, every turning lays to the same points on the Wheel.

What evidence exists anywhere for the proposition that the DO and Creator aren't subject to linear time in their own frame?

It's stated multiple times that there is no time outside the Pattern. In chapter 34 when Rand first steps out, he comments that there is "no time" and that time is "meaningless". In the last chapter when Rand pulls the DO into the Pattern he thinks "Only here is there time."

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

It's stated multiple times that there is no time outside the Pattern. In chapter 34 when Rand first steps out, he comments that there is "no time" and that time is "meaningless". In the last chapter when Rand pulls the DO into the Pattern he thinks "Only here is there time."

That makes sense if you are saying "all events within the pattern are simultaneous when viewed from outside the Pattern." It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of "You showed me this before, now I will show you this other thing afterward."

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of "You showed me this before, now I will show you this other thing afterward."

Hammar, could you please clarify this part?

 

[MuKen]

That makes sense if you are saying "all events within the pattern are simultaneous when viewed from outside the Pattern." It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of "You showed me this before, now I will show you this other thing afterward."

They were not fully outside the Pattern when they did that, Rand clearly states he "anchors" himself to the Pattern in order to feel the flow of time.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

Hammar, could you please clarify this part?

At Timestamp A, the DO shows Rand an alternate reality. Rand processes it. They discuss it. Then at Timestamp B Rand makes another one to show the Dark One. A is before B. That is linear time.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

They were not fully outside the Pattern when they did that, Rand clearly states he "anchors" himself to the Pattern in order to feel the flow of time.

No. That is not why he does it. p. 584:

"The blackness around [the Pattern] sucked on him, pulled him toward it. He reached out to the Pattern and somehow anchored himself in it lest he be consumed." [Bold emphasis added.]

Here is the sequence:
1) Rand exits the Pattern.
2) He observes his mind's representation of the Pattern in its entirety, and we are explicitly told he "could not comprehend it."
3) The blackness sucks and pulls on him
4) In reaction to the sucking and pulling he anchors himself.

2, 3, and 4 all occur before he anchors and in a set sequence. There can be no sequencing, and therefore no cause and effect, if there is no time. The fact that these events are sequenced means there IS time outside the Pattern, it's just that this time frame is not OF the Pattern. There is no indication that events *in this environment* occur simultaneously. The events that occur simultaneously are the events of the Pattern, which Rand cannot process. When he anchors himself to the Pattern, a *side effect* is that he is now able to see all places of the Pattern starting at a fixed (though linearly progressing) point in time.

 

[MuKen]

No. That is not why he does it. p. 584:

"The blackness around [the Pattern] sucked on him, pulled him toward it. He reached out to the Pattern and somehow anchored himself in it lest he be consumed." [Bold emphasis added.]

Here is the sequence:
1) Rand exits the Pattern.
2) He observes his mind's representation of the Pattern in its entirety, and we are explicitly told he "could not comprehend it."
3) The blackness sucks and pulls on him
4) In reaction to the sucking and pulling he anchors himself.

2, 3, and 4 all occur before he anchors and in a set sequence. There can be no sequencing, and therefore no cause and effect, if there is no time. There is no indication that events *in this environment* occur simultaneously. The events that occur simultaneously are the events of the Pattern, which Rand cannot process. When he anchors himself to the Pattern, a *side effect* is that he is now able to see all places of the pattern starting at a fixed (though linearly progressing) point in time.

Why he did it is entirely irrelevant. The point is that there is time because he did that. We are told outright that Rand is moving through time because he is anchored to the Pattern.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

I think that because they are both able to touch the pattern at that point, they still have time. Part of this theory is that the DO can and did experience time -- aprox 3000 years of it, because he was able to touch the pattern. During the exchange, both Rand and the DO still are able to access/interact with the pattern, so even though they are outside of it, they are in contact with it and therefore experience time.

Otherwise, the part of this theory that says the DO experienced time from when the bore was drilled to when it was sealed makes no sense. Because at no time (except the very end when Rand held the DO in his hand) is the DO actually free and fully in the pattern. So contact with the Pattern gives a sense of time, even if you're outside of it. But when the bore/prison/whatever is fully sealed, there is no contact with the pattern, only observation, and therefore no time.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

Apparently I edited while you replied. See if my edit matters.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

there is no contact with the pattern, only observation, and therefore no time.

It's impossible to make an observation unless you can move from a state of not noticing to a state of noticing. That requires time, or, put differently, time is defined as the distance between those two states.

 

[MuKen]

To look at it in the same lens as the theory, the Dragon Soul is then also an entity like the DO who exists partially outside of time, and partially inside. His contact with the Pattern extends through this 'anchored' area where he is still outside but contacting it enough to have time for his meta-battle with the DO, and also further into the Pattern where he experiences his many lives as the Dragon.

It is stated in multiple places that there is no time outside the Pattern, this part really isn't up for debate.

Chapter 34:

A place outside of time, outside of the Pattern itself.

Final Chapter:

Only here (in the Pattern) was there time.

And though I cannot find the scene at the moment, there is another place where time is called "meaningless" outside.

These descriptions are very specific and not vague at all.

 

[Eluial Aldaran]

It's impossible to make an observation unless you can move from a state of not noticing to a state of noticing. That requires time, or, put differently, time is defined as the distance between those two states.

Replace "observation" with "knowledge of it," then. I mean, I'm not sure exactly what language to use when discussing this sort of thing. Timelessness is just fundamentally foreign to us, I can only think of it as an abstraction of an abstraction. A lot of the words we use to describe the DO in his timeless state (see, even that doesn't make sense) are going to be approximations of what they usually mean.

 

[Hammar O'Justice]

It is stated in multiple places that there is no time outside the Pattern, this part really isn't up for debate.

Chapter 34:

A place outside of time, outside of the Pattern itself.

Final Chapter:

Only here (in the Pattern) was there time.

And though I cannot find the scene at the moment, there is another place where time is called "meaningless" outside.

These descriptions are very specific and not vague at all.

I agree that they're completely consistent if you interpret "time" there to mean "the time frame of the Pattern." It makes no sense whatsoever if taken to mean "there is no time outside the Pattern" because it is shown to us, directly, in plain text, that there is. The entire Wheel of Time saga, and in particular AMOL Page 584, make 100% zero sense if there is no time outside the Pattern. If there's no time outside the Pattern, the Creator could never have made the Pattern. "Creator" *means* "One who creates." That means there was a point in Pattern-External Time where there was no Pattern. Otherwise his name would be "Guy Who Sits Over There And Never Does Anything But Yell In Capital Letters Once Or Twice" and that title is way too long, even for a deity.