Who is the Greatest *Great Captain*?

Discussion in 'Wheel of Time Discussion - Books 1-14' started by Ayraii Daedrin, Nov 16, 2011.

?

Who is the Greatest of the *Great Captains*.

  1. Davram Bashere.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Rodel Ilturalde.

    21.6%
  3. Pedron Niall.

    48.6%
  4. Gareth Bryne.

    16.2%
  5. Agelmar Jagad.

    13.5%
  1. Venric Methalion

    Venric Methalion Gaidin

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,496
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Hopefully in the last book we'll get to see all of the Captains in action. The scene at Maradon was ridiculously epic, so I'd like to see the others show why they hold their titles, and I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities.
     
  2. Tazren Talamar

    Tazren Talamar Gaidin

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,271
    Location:
    Sweden
    My gut feeling tells my that Gareth is a pretty great "Great Captain".
     
  3. Niall was acknowleged a Great Captain because he led the forces of the nations during the Aiel war... Maybe not so great, since the armies didn't actually stop the Aiel. They took care of the "Treekiller" (Laman of Carhien, Moiraine's uncle?), acknowleged Lan as Aan'allein, and went back to the Waste.
    I never liked Niald....

    I'm going to vote for Garath Brynne. Can't wait to see what he does at the Last Battle!
     
  4. Please forgive me, I have tried a few times to remove the unauthorized Avatar, and it is stuck in my profie. I'm writing to try to get that fixed.
     
  5. Halbert Al'Kintion

    Halbert Al'Kintion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Don't get me wrong all the noted "great Captains" are fantastic but I picked Rodell for the simple reason that he was given an impossible to accomplish task and what he do/ He damn near accomplished it without the need to be saved or more troops or anything. The man is a freaking tactical genius compared to everyone else. The only other GC we really get to see any of is Davrem Bashere and no doubt he rules but hes no where near as hardcore as Rodell is true that.
     
  6. Halbert Al'Kintion

    Halbert Al'Kintion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Hey Mat having those memories cannot be considered cheating since he didn't really ask for them much less know he had them until after the Band of the Red Hand was formed. He just does what any great general does and uses every resource made available to him.
     
  7. vern nadirin

    vern nadirin Guest

    Ituralde was the only one we have seen painted in that EPIC battle. Bashere if I remember correctly was in Illian with that ill-fated battle against the Seanchan where Rand lost it. Trouble is what we see of Bashere is like the combined plans of a whole war council with the Aiel Chiefs, seasoned generals all. Only Mat and Ituralde have been shown to be actually in battle with sole superior command, at least as far as I can remember. So I go with Ituralde.

    Niall was considered one of the greats because of the Whitecloak War if I remember correctly because of that surprise attack on the Illian army by going through the mountains and winning much more battles than he lost.
     
  8. Davorian

    Davorian Guest

    I'd go with Niall actually, since maintaining the power of the Whitecloaks, while wholly despicable, must have taken a cold sort of genius.

    Also, although it's never mentioned that I can remember, I always assumed the Great Captains were established during the Aiel War as the five most successful generals in the greatest conflict of recent memory
     
  9. I think Rodel, he seems to get most of the hollywood battles and is simply amazing in his execution of them, always look forward to a Rodel Italrude chapter. I think Mat deserves an honorable mention, but still I think Rodel is the best natural Leader of men that the world has, this side of the last battle.
     
  10. Vendri al'Varrak

    Vendri al'Varrak Keeper of the Pork Gaidin

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,274
    Location:
    Maryland
    I completely agree with Al'Jandargaran. Rodel definitely has shown his aptitude much more and in much more impressive situations than any of the other Great Captains. Off the top of my head, holding down Davram Bashere's homecity against a seemingly endless force of Darkspawn. Completely incredible, although admittedly they were gonna go down in the next wave, maybe one more had Rand not shown up and did his "Unlimited Power!" thing.

    Mat definitely deserves an honorable mention though, I personally believe that he is going to be instrumental in the troop part of the Last Battle, maybe even leading the Bashere and Rodel. I have a feeling the Aiel are going to lead themselves though, I don't even think Mat would take on that task. I think he has learned not to stick his hand in a bee hive after all his dealings with Aes Sedai and Seanchan.
     
  11. Davorian

    Davorian Guest

    And yet, whilst Rodel has been seen the most, I personally suspect that Bashere and Jagad are far more adept at dealing with Trolloc assaults. Especially Jagad, what with Tarwin's Gap and all...
     
  12. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Messages:
    6,497
    Location:
    Israel
    Which makes Rodel's stand in the city even MORE amazing, I'd think.
     
  13. Davorian

    Davorian Guest

    Trollocs are far dumber than humans. Rodel's ability to hold them back is a work of genius, a testament to his status as a Great Captain, but by no means do I think it means that Bashere or Jagad couldn't have done a better job. If anything truly marks Rodel as a better captain, it is his ability to act so viciously against the Seanchan, a foe not composed of blithering man-beasts.
     
  14. Aulrick Vendour

    Aulrick Vendour Gaidin

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Messages:
    6,497
    Location:
    Israel
    I disagree. I think what makes him unique is his ability for gurillah warfare. That's true both against the Seanchan, and against the trollocs. And I believe that's an experience NON of the other great captains have, at least so far as we know, because they were never in that situation.
     
  15. Jerm Walt

    Jerm Walt

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    26
    I am no military expert, but while trollocs may be dumb, even cowardly, they are not the ones responsible for the attack. Myrdraal, humans, and the dark one only knows who else was responsible for the attack. The planning and co-ordination was devised by someone else. At best, the trollocs could be compared to the infantry or calvary.
     
  16. Davorian

    Davorian Guest

    Yet, the effectiveness of immediate guerilla warfare isn't really dependent on the higher ups in the enemy side. Over an extended period of time, sure, but over the couple days that Rodel seems to be dealing with, I don't think it really applies.
     
  17. Halbert Al'Kintion

    Halbert Al'Kintion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Now my big question for this thread is this: should we count Mat as a Great Captain? My personal opinion is OH HELL YES. Mat's aptitude for warfare and combat at this point seems second to Rand if that maybe second to none. The dude's new memories grant him a skill in warfare never seen before ever in a single peron in a single age. If Mat had been there with the resources Rodel had available he could have done the job better then Rodel and propally saved more of the city on top of it all. had he been there with his band well I honestly woulda felt sorry for the Shadowspawn Army.
     
  18. Venric Methalion

    Venric Methalion Gaidin

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,496
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I think for the purposes of this thread, it's more a question of who is the greatest of the formally recognized Great Captains in Randland. Mat's military prowess is undoubtedly strong, but he's also spent much of the series with little interest in trying to become a great commander. It's a part of him now, and he's gotten better about accepting it (all three of the Ta'veren have, concerning their roles in the coming battle), but he's still in the process of stepping into and embracing the leadership role. Most of his battle experience until now has either been accidental or a last resort, so I think we'll really see him shine as a true commander now that the Last Battle is upon us. But regarding this thread, he's not yet recognized across the continent as one of the great military leaders of men. Post Tarmon Gaidon, I'm sure he'd rack up all the votes.
     
  19. Halbert Al'Kintion

    Halbert Al'Kintion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    I understand what yer sayin' Venric but I still feel he should be an option on this list just because of his qualifications. I mean seriously the dude is incrediably overqualified for the postion even if at this point he is not offically recognized as such we all know he is one.
     
  20. Idris ab Eynon

    Idris ab Eynon

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    537
    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    I suspect they're all on a par and, rather than one being better than the other, embody various types of warfare. I'm going with Bryne though. For all he nods his head and follows orders, he knows exactly what's going on, who's where and what's happening next.

    As for them embodying aspects of warfare, what makes you of these thoughts?

    Ituralde, for example, appears to be THE MAN for guerrilla and irregular warfare. His army appears to travel light and fast and his tactics so far - bar the defence of the forts - have been geared around misdirection, excellent use of terrain and high adaptability. He's been out numbered throughout and, rather than being hobbled, has used this to his advantage by striking where least expected, legging it and then doing it again.
    Rightly or wrongly, he makes me think of Rommel a little. Possibly it's the Little Wolf or The Wolf/Desert Fox thing.

    Gareth Bryne seemingly has a grasp of both the overall picture and minutiae. His command structure is develoved and a lot of trust goes into those who serve under him. He doesn't appear to be that innovative but strikes me as a coordinated and dependable commander.
    Makes me think of John Churchill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chur ... arlborough).

    Pedron Niall. Not so sure about Niall but, gender aside, seems rather Joan of Arc/Cromwell-ish. Zeal, fervour, led from the front. Done over by his own side etc.

    Davram Bashere. Cavalry man after the Mongol fashion. Fast, harrying. Not one for static defence, I supect, but rather blitzkrieg quick strikes. A jolly little Ghengis.

    Agelmar Jagad. Given where the guy's from, I'm thinking this is the man you'd look to if you want to fight for something. Doggedly. For ever. Not showy but meticulous and methodical like a machine. Chop, hack, next. Hints of Sparta about the guy but I reckon he's all about defensive or static warfare whereby you turn up, dig in, and mince anything that tries to get through.

    Matt has hints of everyone for obvious reasons. His moving towards combined arms and mobile field artillery made me think of Gustavus Adolphus though.