Morality of Gentling... (spoilers for up to book 8)

[driedraspberry]

So Taim warded off insanity for fifteen years? And Logain six? Those are big numbers, a lot of time. I understand that gentling is a necessarily, sure, but that's pretty messed up. Robbing possibly so many years from someone's life is morally questionable and so far I feel the book's skims over it.

I'm in middle of aCoS and my opinion of AS is becoming very much that of the WO and the Maidens. With Alanna's actions (and so far no consequences, ugh specially at Verin's reaction) and some other things, it's disturbing how AS don't seem to have checks on their powers. I like the Greys, I do think they've done the world a lot of good, but all others things considered by this point of the story my attitude towards AS as a whole has changed.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Actually, if they changed the way they handled gentling, they could be giving men much longer lives than the sickness would give them. If you recall, Logain was kept in the Tower after Gentling. There's no reason to keep a Gentled man around. Give him a purpose and people around him who can help him move on, and they have a chance. We know there are women who survive Stilling. There is no reason men shouldn't be able to survive Gentling.

Is this your first read through?

 

[driedraspberry]

I didn't know that. So far gentling has always been said to equate death, unless I've missed something... I thought the women were sent away and never heard of again, hence Suian thoughts alluding to unknown effectiveness of marriage to help with stilling.

This is my second read, but I didn't go past aCoS the first time. I don't even remember how the book ends.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Well, you know they got Logain out of the Tower and dragged him to Salidar.

 

[Midian Venamar]

Yeah, the Gentling sentence is more of a guaranteed Depression for life ... unless you find something to overcome it. Something I always wondered was why they *had* to Gentle men anyways. I mean, they clearly know how to shield a man, and could find a Brown to do the research on how long it takes for the shield to dissipate if it's tied off. Then, they could set up the bridge towns around Tar Valon to be where they keep the channeling men confined to. I mean these guys haven't necessarily done anything wrong ... like Thom's nephew. Why take away their ability to defend themselves then give them to angry mobs? Why force them into deep depressions, which likely result in suicide? They have the means to make it much more humanitarian, but Reds just don't ... or didn't ... seem to care.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

I'm sure it's one of those things that started out of necessity (stopping the damage that mad men were doing with their channeling) and simply became the rule.

 

[driedraspberry]

Logain's case (and Leane/Siuan's too) is special though. I think revenge against the reds, perhaps true love too, would be the few exceptions for one to overcome gentling. Although, definitely AS could have figured out a way to make the process healthier, like finding ways to treat their depression, or finding a suitable start back into normal life even. At this point of the story it doesn't seem like AS give a damn about any man or woman who isn't one of them. They're so...removed.

As it is, they pretty much serve these guys death sentences, when they could've gone 15 or even more years channeling unaffected. However unlikely, it still bothers me. Even more so that I've yet to see anyone conflicted. I think once Verin made a comment about them not knowing how long the effects of taint took to culminate...and no one cared.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

In a very real sense, I don't think they could take the chances. The madness could take a very sudden hold at any time. I still think that we will find Taim's case to be one of protection from the Dark One, even if he's not one of the Forsaken.

Rand's amnesty is something that terrified many people, and the men in training were watched closely and put down if/when the madness struck.

But the AS couldn't afford to put a constant watch on men who could channel. The resources just weren't there. But I agree that the should have more care for those that they gentled and held in custody. Surely there should have been Yellows or someone interested in dealing with healing of the mind. I think they long forgot the servants part of their titles.

 

[Vendri al'Varrak]

Emerylde Sedai has the right of it I believe. The madness CAN be subtle and slow at first, giving the AS plenty of time before actually being required to Gentle those men. However, the madness can also be immediate and violent, such as with Lews Therin Telamon himself. Would you risk the lives of innocents based on what might be? I wouldn't.

If you want it from a humanitarian perspective, think of it this way: Gentling the man early leads to an immediate depression that could, under the right circumstances, be overcome. Gentling a man after he has done his deed and perhaps killed people dearest to him would lead to a depression that couldn't be overcome no matter how long you had left to dwell on/redeem those misdeeds. The Aes Sedai, in a way, are choosing the lesser of two evils.

 

[Midian Venamar]

I'm still not convinced they did the right thing at all. Vendri, it sounds like you're saying they had to Gentle them either before or after they went crazy ... I'm saying that there was the option of shielding them and tying the shield off. At the BT, men were encouraged to channel as much as they could, and therefore had to be under constant guard. If they simply determined how long it took for a shield to dissipate, they could keep a pretty good watch on the men without allowing them to channel at all, or only for very short periods of time to keep the madness off, and very small amounts.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

You're suggesting that the AS should have gone to the Black Tower and tried shielding all the men there?

Since the Breaking it was known that men who were able to channel would go mad and become destructive, usually followed by long, painful death. It was seen as a necessity and a mercy to gentle them. It became a rule of law for the White Tower to shield the men and hold them until they could be gentled. Tying a shield off and setting people to guarding men in case they broke it is an impractical solution. Until Saidin was cleansed, there was simply no good method for caring for men who could channel. Not to mention the ones who decided they were the Dragon Reborn and started wars.

 

[Midian Venamar]

Once the BT was founded, men who channeled are pretty much no longer under the control of the White Tower. I meant instead of Gentling them, essentially take away their ability to channel. Instead of having it completely gone, maybe give them brief opportunities to channel ... just enough to keep the depression off, but not enough to let the taint cause madness. Of course, that would be a risk the man would have to choose ... but at least they'd be given the choice.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Who on earth would you convince to manage that program?

 

[driedraspberry]

I just assumed madness was a gradual process and the breaking took everyone by surprise since they didn't know the signs. But yikes, I'm reading tPoD now and you're right, it strikes quick. Hmm I'm not sure about Taim. I never though he was a darkfriend due to passing the DO's prison shield onto Rand when we first see him. Still, as much as I appreciate his sass (if it can be called that, lol), he's definitely headed to butt heads with Rand.

Hmm the shield idea is interesting. I have this mental picture of shielded men making appointments to come to Tar Valon and have a few hours channeling under control the way people used to approach psychologists for controlled LSD use. Perhaps it could work, at least if the Yellows were interested and had their own er medical unit.

 

[Vendri al'Varrak]

I don't think shielding is a viable option Midian. For one, it would take time and resources (cost of living for the men, shelters, management) that the White Tower might not have. Monetarily, sure they can definitely afford to it, but as far as manpower (or womanpower) is concerned such a project probably just isn't feasible.

For two, shields can be tricky. I am sure that the time before a shield dissipates has a ridiculous amount of factors including but not limitied to: The skill of the Aes Sedai creating/tying off the weave, the strength of the Aes Sedai, whether or not the man attempts to break the shield, etc. It would require at least hourly checking/maintenance for security reasons, if not more. Then there is also the risk of the Black Ajah. I'm sure if these men were cooped up shielded like that, some Black Ajah member somewhere would receive orders to let them loose and let chaos ensue. The Dark One just wouldn't pass up an opportunity like that, and if he didn't make the call himself you can bet one of the Forsaken would.

 

[Midian Venamar]

They wouldn't have to provide for the men ... they could let them live their lives as they wished ... they'd just be limited to not traveling outside of Tar Valon or its bridgetowns. Woman really wouldn't be that much of a concern, considering they already have an entire Ajah devoted solely to the handling of men who can channel. The BA wouldn't have been an acknowledged threat anyways since until very recently they have disavowed the entire idea of the BA existing. Plus, as for shields, don't forget that the Seafolk are extremely advanced in their ability to shield. And of course you wouldn't have to do it for all men ... I'm just saying to give them an option.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

1. The Seafolk aren't in Tar Valon.
2. Acknowledged or not, the BA exists and always did.
3. While the Red Ajah are dedicated to dealing with men who can channel, they are a small Ajah.

The resources are too few, and the risks too high. I would love to be able to agree with you, Midian, because it's so sad what the men go through. But it is for the greater good.

 

[Tehmpus]

I think setting up a prison/comfortable work camp within Far Madding would be an acceptable option.
You'd probably have to put down the ones that are just too far gone in their madness, but the male channellers who were still right in the mind could live out relatively decent lives within the walls of Far Madding. Of course, they'd have to do some work to contribute to society, but a fairly comfortable, yet secure prison could be an answer. I think gentling is almost akin to torture. If that is your only viable option, then you might as well execute them, and save them some misery while you're at it.

 

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Ah, but aren't you glad they didn't execute Logain?

Still, Far Madding is an interesting idea. The only thing is convincing the people of Far Madding to agree. Also, the idea of a prison camp is somewhat abhorrent to me. If you compare it to being gentled, it's not that much better of a life. I highly doubt they would find themselves able to find wives, and they would surely be shunned for being what they are.

 

[Tehmpus]

Well I think life is pretty much an exploration of Einstein's Theory, and my puppy kind of agrees with me... at least his chewing on my work shoes is evidence in support of it.

Prison camp sounds nightmarish, but constant depression, rotting sickness, and death sound worse.