Mat and the Horn

[Emerald ní Róhan]

Caleb, it would seem that you are correct.

 

[Moiraine874]

Agreed.

 

[Brandon Tat'vakja]

I have to agree with Caleb as well. And I still think that he and the horn are not connected anymore.

 

[Caliden Al'Waes]

I don't believe the horn is connected to him, but I think that Suian is going to do everything within her power to get it into his hands. But who knows, maybe someone else will be closer and grab it hoping it will do something and it will! Wouldn't that be a plot twist some of us sorta saw coming?

As for the dying, just because the pattern of him being dead is erased doesn't mean it didn't happen. If I wrote up this post and then backspaced all of it it doesn't mean I never wrote it. It just means the only people who know about it are the ones who saw what I typed before it was deleted. Thats how I look at it anyway.

 

[Hadassa C'Yanni]

Very clever analogy Caliden! I would have to agree with you, Rand remembers the death and balefire cannot remove said memory.

 

[Jell Gordan]

As for the dying, just because the pattern of him being dead is erased doesn't mean it didn't happen. If I wrote up this post and then backspaced all of it it doesn't mean I never wrote it. It just means the only people who know about it are the ones who saw what I typed before it was deleted. Thats how I look at it anyway.

But that is something different. What you do are two different actions: the typing and the deleting. What balefire does is remove an action, which means the action (e.g. the typing) and the consequences (e.g. the deleting) never happened.

Mat's case is similar to what you often see in time-travel stories. If you travel to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and prevent his death WWI would never have happened (or dfferently). You will remember it,but that is because you are the person who made the change. The rest of the world will remember it differently.

So I believe Mat is still connected to the Horn because he never really died. The prophecie of the Finn was just a bit more cryptic than humans usually prefer.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

That's not true. If I remember correctly, SEVERAL people remember his death, not only Rand as the person who made the change. I think Mat himself said that several people saw him die...

But I believe that he's still conected to the horn too.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

BTW - does anyone remember why we assume there is some sort of connection between the person blowing the horn and the horn itself?

 

[Jell Gordan]

It is being said by Birgitte in book 6 or 7 I think. Se tells Mat only he can blow the Horn to summon the Heroes. Anyone else who blows it, will get a nice sound but nothing more.

And since Birgitte adresses Mat as Hornblower in book 6/7 (after he dies and lifes again) I think we can actually assume that Mat is the rightful Hornblower.

Yes, Birgitte is not in TAR anymore due to being ripped out, but it happened around the same time as Mat's death, perhaps even after it (though both in book 5). RJ's timeline is always been hard to grasp.

 

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

The link between the horn and its sounder was said straight out in book 3. When Mat recovered from the dagger he was told so by siuan. It was also stated several other times that I remember less specifically. To everyone else it is only a horn so long as the first sounder is alive (provided that his alive / dead / alive thing didn't break the link)

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

BTW - does anyone remember why we assume there is some sort of connection between the person blowing the horn and the horn itself?

Relevant quote for you.

Clutching the blanket tightly around him, he had to swallow before he could say, "I remember, Mother."
She seemed to relax, just a little, and Mat shrugged his shoulders queasily. He felt as if he had just been allowed to lift them off a chopping block.
"Good. That is good, Mat." She sat back down slowly, studying him. "Do you know that you are linked to the Horn?" He mouthed the word "linked" silently, shocked, and she nodded. "I did not think you knew. You were first to blow the Horn of Valere after it was found. For you, it will summon dead heroes back from the grave. For anyone else, it is only a horn – so long as you live."
He took a deep breath. "So long as I live," he said in a dull voice, and the Amyrlin nodded. "You could have let me die." She nodded again. "Then you could have had anyone you want blow it, and it would have worked for them." Another nod. "Blood and ashes! You mean me to blow it for you. When the Last Battle comes, you mean me to call heroes back from the grave to fight the Dark One for you. Blood and bloody ashes!"

The interesting thing is................. how does she know that?

Prophecy? Been used at some point after the breaking? Instruction manual?

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

That was my point Axis. So Siuan said so. So what? Aes Sedai had been wrong before... Often... In fact, an Aes Sedai right about anything ancient regarding the last battle is about as likely as me understanding Latin... Just to be clear, I probably won't be able to recognize Latin if I'll hear it.
I mean, she WAS wrong about the heroes fighting for whoever blows the horn, light or shadow (while we know they must follow the Dragon banner).
In other words, we've all been accepting it at face value with no proof... I don't suppose Brigitte ever said anything about it, did she?

 

[Anika Forsyn]

:rofl Instruction manual just made my day.

I can't say I ever even considered this! I'd say I have to agree with Brandon that RJ wrote himself into a corner. Mat died. Even though Rand "brought him back", I would say temporary death by hanging is enough of a death to sever the link to the horn!

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

We're not even talking about that
We're wondering if a connection ever existed in the first place.

 

[Jell Gordan]

According to Birgitte in book 7 there is a connection. She referred to Mat as Hornblower.

 

[Aulrick Vendour]

Which could mean nothing more then the fact that he indeed blew the horn...
All of a sudden this conversation sounds much more interesting

 

[Jaryd Kosari]

Have you blown the Horn of Valere?
...Would you like to? :waggle


Nah. I think in this case between what little the White Tower knows and what Birgitte said, I'm willing to accept that a link exists. I also still firmly believe that the heroes would respond to whomever blew the horn, not just the Dragon Reborn's army.

 

[Axis m'Troutilas]

The Tower..... well they are a dodgy source of information. But even if they are wrong, I'd like to know where she got the idea from.




However I'm not sure how much do the heroes in TAR actually know about the horn and its mechanics. It could be almost anything really.

There is much I'd like to know about their "precepts".


Check out this little quote from Sanderson just to get you thinking.

Interview: Apr, 2012

Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased)
Luckers

In The Great Hunt Ishamael has no knowledge that Mat sounded the Horn, and thinks Rand did. Later on though, a Fade refers to Mat as the Hornsounder. How did he know?
Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.
LUCKERS

*we talked about this for a while, and I didn’t take any notes on that part of the conversation (so it was nothing big) we dropped back into interesting stuff a bit later and I resumed note taking*
BRANDON SANDERSON

I will say that, in the course of writing A Memory of Light, I learned some very interesting things that went against some strong preconceptions I had about the Horn. Some of the ideas I had, about how it worked, turned out to be incorrect.

Something to be looked into here I think.

 

[Sorcha Al'Verdan]

Ooh, that sounds interesting. Then let's examine the instance of the horn being blown in order to try and draw some firmer conclusions about how it operates. Let's assume nothing.

Perhaps if the heroes have some knowledge, Lews Therin will be able to give Rand some insight as to how it works, since he's bound to it when not in the flesh?

What if the only reason the heroes follow the hornsounder's instructions is because they're afraid of the horn being broken? Do they have the ability to rebel at all, or is it just the horn being in jeopardy that makes them obey? When the horn was blown, they demanded the banner to follow before they would march. That makes me think they have the ability to rebel against the hornsounder. Plus, the heroes pretty much ignored Mat once they arrived, speaking to Rand the entire time (The only time they spoke directly to Mat was to say 'Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle.' And they Asked Rand's permission to do that much!) What is that all about?

 

[Jell Gordan]

It has been mentioned, either in a thread, on the WoT wiki or somewhere in the books (haven't got the foggiest idea where) that the Heroes follow the Hornblower, wether s/he be good or bad. But should the Dragon be present when the Horn is blown, they will follow him, even though he may not be on the side that blew the Horn.