White Tower and Seanchan ((Possibly spoilers))

Lok Enkee

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((Warning, this contains some spoilers))

Now, we all know the Seanchan. The great empire which collars channelers, practices slavery and effectively conquered a number of kingdoms in Randland. We also know that the White Tower, and especially Egwene, hate the Seanchan with the heat of a thousand suns. Egwene even considers the Seanchan close to being Darkfriends.

Now, after reading AMoL and thinking back on it, is the White Tower really that much better?

First off, let's take a look at the Seanchan. Now, first off, I don't approve of how they treat the Damane. Treating them like they're lesser beings is too much. However, I can see the reasoning behind the collar. Their great ancestor, Artur Hawking, was an enemy of the White Tower. And when they first arrive in Seandar, that were immediately thrown into a war with the resident channelers. In fact, it was the a'dam that saved them from being completely wiped out. So, it seems almost natural that their opinion of channelers would be that of destroyers. Now, instead of adopting a more brutal approach, such as killing anyone with the spark, they collar them, making them of use to the Empire as a whole. Again, I don't approve of the treatment, but I can see where the reasoning came from.

Now, let's look at the White Tower. Despite what Aes Sedai say, the White Tower effectively rules the world. They control monarchs and even have the influence and power to remove monarchs if they so wish. They effectively force any woman who can channel to join them, even forcing the Athen Miere to adopt methods to avoid them like the plague. Any channelers who are not Aes Sedai who gather are made an example of and forced to disband. They consider themselves the sole authority of channelers and look down on everyone else. For people who aren't supposed to be rulers, that's a ridiculous amount of power right there.

And as we all know, power corrupts.

A prime example is Elaida. She's essentially what the Seanchan fear in a channeler. A woman who can channel, with so much power, who has gone completely insane from it. She was cold before, but the instant she grabbed the Stole, they started prepping her room at the nuthouse.

Aes Sedai do everything they can to control everything, and have gotten to the point where they can't stand being not the one in charge. Even Moiraine said to Rand in her letter not to trust any Aes Sedai, because they've been in control for too long to give it up. They've separated themselves from the rest of humanity to the point where some don't even consider Aes Sedai human, but almost like some sort of superior being.

Basically, the White Tower has it's own empire. The entirety of Randland. They've just worked it to the point where they can say with a straight face that they're not rulers, despite the rest of the world knowing that isn't the case.

Now, people are probably saying by this point " Lok you well hung stallion of a man, the White Tower doesn't collar people and force them to do their bidding."

No they don't, but they do something similar. The Warders.

Anyone who has read to this point will know that the Warder bond allows the Aes Sedai to bend the warder to their will. Very dangerously like how the Sul'dam control the damane. It was mentioned at one point that hundreds of years ago, Aes Sedai even forcefully bonded warders without their permission. Alanna even forcefully bonded Rand and tried to control him, only to find that Male channelers couldn't be controlled. The rebel Aes Sedai and the Red Ajah even had the same idea of bonding the Asha'man, specifically to control them. Also, I think this control also happens on a more subtle level. When Logain bonded Toveine, she completely lost the will to fight against him, despite seconds ago wanting to stab him. I think there's more to this control than we're given in the series. Essentially, Warders are to Aes Sedai like the damane are to the Seanchan. Weapons. Especially since Warders provide a convenient loophole for the whole "No killing with the ne Power" rule.

Now, you're probably saying "But the Warders get to choose to become Warders." Well, in Seanchan, more often than not, those who have been found to channel willingly turn themselves over to become damane, even those who the tests missed. I think they know what they're getting into when they become damane. Somehow I doubt that the White Tower tells the potential Warders "Oh, by the way, you're Aes Sedai can control your every action for the rest of your life."

So, why does the White Tower hate the Seanchan? Well, the obvious reason is that they collar channelers and essentially treat them like animals. But I think deeper down there's another reason. The Seanchan are a power that can challenge their authority. For centuries, the White Tower has 'guided' Randland. Nobody could stand against them, since they had the One Power on their side. However, here come the Seanchan, who have their own channelers and can prove to be a match for them, possibly even moreso. The Seanchan not only show not only the Aes Sedai losing their power, but being pulled down to being lesser than the people they 'guided', after so long being above them.

While the Seanchan were conquering Tarabon and Amadecia, the Aes Sedai barely paid any attention to them. But with the raid on the Tower, it showed just how strong they really were. Another note is that Rand noted while in Ebou Dar, many of the citizens outright praised the Seanchan for conquering them, as they were able to bring law and order to a war torn land. Something the Aes Sedai were never able to do.

So, is the White Tower any better than Seanchan? Personally, I don't think so.

What do you guys think?
 

Dareth d'Rahien

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The White Tower and the Seanchan both face the same issue: how to make sure that the vast power held by individual channelers doesn't cause huge problems. In both cases, there are means in place to control channelers and prevent them from doing harm.

But: the Seanchan approach is to strip all capability for self-determination from the channelers, reducing them to mindless slaves through not only direct force (the a'dam) but also through cultural oppression. Whereas the White Tower gives the channelers the ability to govern themselves.

The comparison between the Seanchan control of the damane and the Aes Sedai bonding Warders is pretty lopsided. Alanna's forced bonding of Rand was, rightly, treated with revulsion by most Aes Sedai, and the extreme actions of the Red Ajah with respect to male channelers is not something that can be reasonably extrapolated to the more general bonding case. Extreme cases aside, Warders are still volunteers, and not the culturally-brainwashed "I'm a channeler and therefore I must 'volunteer' to be enslaved" volunteers that the damane are. There are plenty of skilled warriors who choose not to become Warders - it's clearly a choice made much more freely than that of the damane.

Were the Seanchan a threat to the politically powerful position that the White Tower held? Of course they were. Were the Aes Sedai fighting the Seanchan solely to preserve their political power? No - the Seanchan represented an existential threat to the Aes Sedai, and not just the ones that were wielding political power. (And faulting the Aes Sedai for failing to promptly respond to the invasion is a bit silly considering the split in the Tower at the time - doing anything with a unified front was basically impossible, and one side devoting energy (and very likely lives) to fighting the Seanchan would have just given the other side an advantage in the fight for the Tower.

Of course the Tower isn't perfect, and yes, the Aes Sedai used their abilities as leverage for political power - but going from there to claiming moral equivalency with the Seanchan's enslavement of channelers is way too big a leap.
 

Lok Enkee

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I can't compete with that logic. Further thinking on it, I guess my argument more stems from my serious dislike of the White Tower, and further more, Egwene.
 
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My mind keeps going to the scene with Cadsuane and Tam. He basically calls her out trying to be a bully, and forces her to back down.

Gareth also didn't let them push him past his limit as either their general or as Siuan's warder.

Both examples lead me to believe that each warder has to have a strong sense of self-respect.
 
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Personally I don't think either or is better than the other. But if I had to choose one. I'd say the seanchan. Not because I believe I they've done the right thing by collaring people. But because they're not taking the power away. But keeping those who can channel from thinking they're better. It's humbling them. If they hadn't, the ability to channel would put them above the law so to speak and there would be more political games. And there would be no single ruler as they have.
 
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I really admire the way that the Seanchan structure works. Seems like a merit based system. The Aes Sedai authority is based primarily on how strong in the power you are. Seems unfair for the hierarchy to be based on something that one is born with rather than the experience, character, and actual leadership ability.
 

Almira ni'Caldazare

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The Seanchan method of controlling channelers takes all free will away. Warders can still choose to disobey... Look at Bridgette and Elayne. They can disagree with each other and still be Aes Sedai and Warder. A collard channeler cannot have an opinion.
 

Ryu Shadowborn

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The problem with the Seanchan way is that it punishes crime before it happens, which is always an icky thing even without the punishment for that possible crime being "life of slavery"
 
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I have never thought about this issue in the way that you did Lok Sionn. I see and understand your point of view. I liked very much what Dareth d'Rahien had to say on the issue. I would have to agree that the Seanchan oppressed the channelers in an unacceptable manor. No society has the right to oppress an entire population. I do not know of another way, besides killing all channelers, to keep them under complete control however. I think that the development of the White Tower was a wonderful way to teach channelers how to control their ability and not harm others. Unfortunately there is no way to force people not to use their powers in harmful ways, but the Tower is aware of this issue. Which is why they have rules and punishments for when those rules are broken. Every governing system will have their good and bad traits about them. I sure wouldn't want to be born into Seanchan territory if I was a channeler! How sad must it be to loose everything you have ever known to willingly become a slave of the government.
 
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