Mat and the Horn

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So I am wondering if anyone else has come to the conclusion that Mat is no longer attached to the horn? The horn would be connected to Mat till his death. Well Mat has died already, and come back. So logically they are no longer linked, and anyone who blows the horn now will be the one in control of the returned heroes.

Just my two cents.
 
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Definitely possible, although it may be moot. It seems like with the Horn being in the Tower, and Egwene being in charge of the Tower, it'd be unlikely that they'd take into account Mat's death and then undeath. Especially since Rand is the only one who knows that it ever happened. My bet is everyone assumes Mat is still going to be the horn-sounder, and so will likely blow it again, tying himself to it once more if he ever had been separated.
 
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Mat didn't die and come back. His death was wiped form the Pattern through the use of Balefire which means that it never actually occurred. Since he never died, there's no reason he would no longer by bound to the Horn.

If you are referring to his hanging in Rhuidean, Jordan stated that Mat did not die.
 

Wil Cambrae

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Actually two of his deaths were wiped from the Pattern, but both by balefire.
 
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Wil Cambrae said:
Actually two of his deaths were wiped from the Pattern, but both by balefire.

??? :scratch

I remember the one in Caemlyn, but for the life of me can't remember another time he died, much less it being erased by balefire.

Please refresh...
 

Wil Cambrae

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He was also drooled on by a Darkhound when Rand took the Aiel out of the Waste.
 
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He didn't die then ... he just would've lost an arm to the acid in their drool, and probably died soon after. Rand balefired them early enough that it wasn't an issue.
 

Wil Cambrae

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Indeed he didn't die before the balefire, but it would have happened.
 
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This is a subject where I would call RJ out. The 'finn told him he would die and live again. The battle against Rahvin shouldn't count, since he technically never died a la Balefire.

The books seem to make it clear that Mat died in Rhuidean. Mat certainly seems to think so. Unless there's a quote of RJ (or some other proof) that there is another instance where Mat will die and come back to life, I'm sticking with the notion that he died in Rhuidean. (And I will always pronounce "Taim" in the way that rhymes with fame. :p)

So. Based on the assumption that Mat died, it is entirely possible that the link was severed. Logically, everyone will assume that Mat will have to be the horn-sounder, since they don't know he died. So it ultimately won't matter. Or it may be that the link was re-established when he returned to life. Either way, I'm sure Mat will be the one with the Horn at the Last Battle.

Nice insight, Brandon!
 
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This whole above argument about Matt "dying" in Rhuidean all depends on what you mean by death? Even if you stop breathing, you are not technically dead. Assuming there's was nothing but suffocation/drowning stopping you from breathing (i.e. no spear through your heart) you can still be revived after a few minutes with no brain damage, as Rand was able to do. My grandfather had this happen to him several times in the last few years of his life before he passed (he had lung and heart problems).

If Matt had hung too long on that rope, there is no way Rand's ad-lib CPR would have worked. Therefore, IMO Matt's only real death occured in Caemlyn, which was removed by balefire. I think RJ actually answered this at some point, but I can't remember where I saw it.
 
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Mat didn't die in Caemlyn. The actions of Rahvin were undone, which means Mat never died. :cheeseeni:

And if one has stopped breathing, and the heart has stopped, one is dead, but can still be revived. Mat himself believes this to be the case.

At any rate, the real question is whether Mat would still be tied to the horn. And that is a really tough call.
 
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Emerylde niRohan said:
The books seem to make it clear that Mat died in Rhuidean. Mat certainly seems to think so. Unless there's a quote of RJ (or some other proof) that there is another instance where Mat will die and come back to life, I'm sticking with the notion that he died in Rhuidean.

Ask and you shall receive.

He didn't die in Rhuidean.

Interview: Jan 16th, 2003
COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)
Tim Kington
My friend Josh and I had been talking about how Rand and Mat spent a week in Rhuidean, and so he asked how long Mat was hanging.
Robert Jordan
Long enough.
JOSH
Long enough for what?
ROBERT JORDAN
Long enough to be ALMOST dead.

So pretty much the only other thing it could be referring to is Caemlyn.

And if you want a quote for that, I can help out with that one too

Two quotes from two separate people at this event

Apr 5th, 1996 -
Baltimore, MD
TourCon
Bill Garrett

Mat's amulet blocks both saidin and saidar. Jordan answered this one straight-out when asked. He pointed out that the amulet only blocks actual weavings of the One Power, not the physical effects that could be caused by a weaving. For example, Elayne was able to use the One Power to hurl a rock at Mat. Rahvin was able to create a bolt of lightning which struck Mat. (Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)

Interview: Apr 5th, 1996
BaltiCon XXX - Pam Korda (Paraphrased)
Question
When did Mat die and live again?
Robert Jordan
He said something that implied that the die and live again prophecy-fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven, and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising. I was always sure it was the other way around. To paraphrase the Humblest Man on the Net: Who's this guy to tell me such things? He just wrote the books.
 
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:tug Insufficient! I find Jordan's logic flawed and therefore deny it.

:p

I still say it is pronounced like Tame!!!! Muaaahahahahahaha!!!
 
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Emerylde niRohan said:
:tug Insufficient! I find Jordan's logic flawed and therefore deny it.

:p

I still say it is pronounced like Tame!!!! Muaaahahahahahaha!!!

Agreed on both accounts. The lightning death makes no sense. It would have had to be the hanging incident.
 
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I would have been so horrible if I'd met Jordan. I totally would have argued with him about how to pronounce Taim and when Mat died. :evil
 
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It may help to understand a little better how the Finns think, and you have to remember they sort of don't experience the pattern in a linear fashion the way everyone else does.

For them, alternate timelines, parallel/mirror worlds, history re-writes....... its not black and white for them, as Dr Who would say, its wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

So given their twisted view of things, its amazing they can get as close a description as they did trying to convey their ideas to simple old Mat.

If I could get poetic for a moment from the side of the Ashandarei.

“Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.
Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.
What was asked is given. The price is paid.”

The memory of Mat's death is not erased.

As far as people's perception of reality is, he lived, died, and then lived again.

Balefire doesn't re-write history exactly, it doesn't rewind time. it just undoes actions by killing the person back in time so that they weren't there to take those actions. So Mats death was undone...... but that's almost not the same as never happening in the first place as the act is remembered.

Unfortunately as with all time travel stories language almost isn't sufficient to describe things, and worse things may not be exactly internally consistent in the first place being filled with paradox. (hence the danger in using the damn thing. It often defies logic and unravels the pattern in doing so).

You have to remember prophecy isn't required to exactly by 100% clear in what its talking about (sadly). And if you were trying to write a prophecy about the lightning incident from the characters perspective, then living, dying and living again comes pretty close being accurate. It certainly gets the gist across. They don't going into a big speech perhaps about how technically speaking the death is only sort of happened, but not really happened happened

The fulfilling the prophecy phrasing of living, dying and living again is one thing and that event outlined by that prophecy is the lightning incident for 100% certain.

However whether that incident and its definition of death is the same criteria as what is necessary to snap the link to the horn is a totally separate issue.

It maybe, or it may not. that all depends upon the horn mechanics not on what words the Finn choose to describe balefire incidents with.
 
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Well. I guess I would say the tie is still in place. Technically, the death never happened, so the link would not have been severed. That is what I am going to go with for now.

Axis, that was a really excellent post. :clap
 
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Thankyou Emerylde.

I was hoping I was making sense :)
 

CalebMSmith90

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I was always under the belief that even though Mats death was undone by Balefire, he still died. even though the action was reversed, he was dead until that happened. Its like balefiring a person. their actions may be reversed but not the memory of said action. Rand remembers mats death, so maybe thats whats what
 
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