Couples (whole book spoiler)

Borias said:

Eh, I was ok with it being a bit abrupt. There's still plenty of time that could potentially be filled in before the gateway pops up and they can go hang out with Perrin. Also, this was from Mat's POV, and he's not the type of guy to hang around and watch while they get all mushy and stuff, hence him going off and finding that pot.

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Also all the way through the tower Thom was being very gentle with Moraine and even before them leaving he sings a song "Sweet whispers of Tomorrow" and during which Mat wonders "if he was playing for Moraine. A last, melancholy song for a failed rescue."
It could very well be that Thom is playing a song of farewell for Moraine showing his love for her.
Just a thought.

Leo Kian said:

It still doesn't seem right to me for some reason, not everyone has to end up with someone. Although it is nice Moiraine being happy and not just married to her quest!

I liked the Morgase/Tallanvor get together though!

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At least from the build up that Jordan did in all the other books, I'm pretty sure this is something that was already in the works. If this wasn't the case, I don't really get why he would go into the Tower of Ghenji to save her. He's not a huge fan of Aes Sedai.

I want to credit GM Damodred with saying somewhere in here that the "Broken Crown" of Saldea refers to the primogeniture succession (birthright) of the ruling family. Since Tenobia is "unhitched", then other family would have to step up should she be unable to reign.

So, how lovely a couple would Tenobia & Karede be? Furyk Karede treated Tuon like a doll & she gave him her doll. I'm just saying he knows how to care & broke the rules by repeatedly asking to be assigned to her service. He'd be a great match for for a stubborn Saldean. And she could use a bit more discipline, yes?

Or do their ages make my suggestion :x & D: ? Who would you like to see hook up that hasn't already? I'm not saying that everyone should, just that if GM is right (& he SO often is), Tenobia maybe needs a man to handle. And she might not be the only one who could use a partner. I don't know how to insert a same sex couple without it looking like a token though. Any ideas there?

I'm just having fun here, y'all.

Morrighan Daghdera said:

[quote="Ren Dashain":1tmv37q5]Also didnt Thom have a bit of a fling with his apprentice before she died? Whats up with that?

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Probably going to get balefired for this, but...um...

He's a man. :\[/quote:1tmv37q5]


Oh man, I just spent the last 10 minutes laughing my rear end off. No, you won't get balefired. However, I know of quite a lot of women who cheated on their spouse/boyfriend/etc. just as much as a lot of men I know of have. Its sad, and I wish everyone stayed with one "mate." However, knowing people how they are, that won't happen anytime soon. Anyways, back to the topic :waggle.

Thom did have that fling with the apprentice because I don't think he was in love with Moraine as yet. Remember his comment in tSR in Tear was along the lines of "Ooo, what a babe! . . . Oh wait, she's Aes Sedai!!! No way, Jose!" And this was two books later from when his girlfriend was killed in tGH. He obviously was attracted to her, but not to the extent he was later. We just don't see any of their relationship building. I imagine he thought about her a lot since Tear and eventually it became fondness and then eventually love. Moriane, on the other hand, obviously loved Thom by the end of FoH (her letter to him proves it). Though, I wish they had more of this relationship/thought processes about each other in the books that would keep the romance alive for us. As it is, you only have Thom reading his letter constantly after Matt gives him it. Nothing else. As such, it is kind of thrown at us abruptly in ToM. But still, there are a lot of hints and forshadowings about the two of them to make up for it, so it didn't bother me nor did it surprise me.

Thom/Moiraine didn't really come out of the blue for me after the last book, but that's probably because of earlier discussions on the web pre-TGS. I have no problem with them as a couple, but I just don't think, personally, we saw much of this leading up. At least not as much as some folks say.

Yes, Moiraine knew who he was in Emond's Field. As an Aes Sedai, a Blue at that, and a noble/member of the Cairhien royal family who has been traveling all over Randland for 20 years, yeah. She's kept up with what's going on. :P So, she at least knows of him and his reputation. I believe she says something to that effect in Tear, re: reputation.

Thom is quite a ladies man apparently. I mean, he doesn't have to look like Galad, let's face it. He's an artist. He's educated. He's at least attractive. He's charming. He's very smart. He's experienced. Ding, ding, ding! Almost all things that would attract Moiraine, really.

I can see them being attracted to each other. I just don't see "where" they fell in love.

To be honest, Nyneave and Lan's fall has always mystified me also. I can see her thinking in the back of her head "Wow, he's hot. Also, he's attached to this woman I hate. I should get him." Hey, some girls think like that!

I can see him admiring her spunk and spirit. I still can't fathom when or where they had enough interaction to hit the Big L. Especially before she gets shipped off to Tar Valon in TGH.

(Incidentally, that's one of my biggest beefs with romance novels, which I love to read so just shush. Oh we met two days ago, I'm deeply in love with you!)

Perrin and Faile seem pretty organic to me, if dysfunctional. She latches onto their band cause they seem odd, finds him attractive and stalks him in that teenage girl way. They actually spend a really large amount of time together, so I can see it.

Min and Rand seem pretty organic to me, even though she knows beforehand she'll fall in love with him. She does, but he doesn't. :P

Serenla Tamowith said:

I can see them being attracted to each other. I just don't see "where" they fell in love.

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I think it was in The Shadow Rising. mcskim 46 quoted a passage about Moiraine telling the girls that she knew who she'd marry. Also, Chapter 17, Deceptions, has a lovely flirtatious scene between the pair. I *think* Moiraine had already fallen for Thom, but I don't think he could admit to himself quite the same until after she jumped Lanfear.

In Chapter 6, Doorways, she enters the Tear ter'angreal doorway. In Chapter 17, she guarantees by the First Oath that Thom will survive the trip to Tanchico. Did she perhaps ask the Finns *something* about Thom & discover he will be at the Last Battle, as well as her destined honey bunny?

Anyway, I just reread Chapter 17 & love love love this quote from Thom's POV after Moiraine manipulates him to go to Tanchico with the Wondergirls:

She had him like a snake in a cleft stick, damned however he writhed. Burn the woman!

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She knows she will marry him in EoTW-- Min tells her. We don't see it happen but she tells Rand when talking about her gift that she could see a man and a woman who have never met before and know they will marry. Many people think she refers to Nynaeve and Lan but I always thought she meant Moiraine and Thom considering how many times Moiraine mentions knowing the face of the man she will marry.

Honestly... I'm still seething at the Moiraine/Thom pairing. I just read the entire series in 2 months (my first time reading 13 though) and I just didn't see it coming *enough*. Nyn/LAN was slap-in-the-face obvious to me compared to this

Reading this thread, it's nice to realize there were some indications I missed/forgot, but I still find offensive how abrupt it was also, the fact that Moiraine agrees so easily to throw away a part of who she is and her potential necessity to the world (her ability to channel, by offering to get rid of her sa'angreal) seemed kind of off and not really cool to me. I like how strong she is and I don't want her throwing it all away for a dude! (strong in the character sense, not channeling sense, obvi)

Asandra said:

I like how strong she is and I don't want her throwing it all away for a dude! (strong in the character sense, not channeling sense, obvi)

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True, but I highly doubt that's going to change. Being in a relationship doesn't suddenly make you weak, as I can profess from my own experiences. I'm just as strong-willed and independent in a relationship or not. Taking book-examples, though, look at Siuane. She may be a bit less harsh now that she's in love, but certainly no less strong.

Lythnia Roylin said:

Asandra said:

I like how strong she is and I don't want her throwing it all away for a dude! (strong in the character sense, not channeling sense, obvi)

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True, but I highly doubt that's going to change. Being in a relationship doesn't suddenly make you weak, as I can profess from my own experiences. I'm just as strong-willed and independent in a relationship or not. Taking book-examples, though, look at Siuane. She may be a bit less harsh now that she's in love, but certainly no less strong.

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I'm not talking about relationships. I'm talking about M in particular. S is super stong -- but she also knows she has to make GB wait until her current task is finished before she can marry him and have dozens of his babies I don't get that impression from M at all -- Thom says "cool but I don't like AS" and she's like "k I don't have to be AS! Let the last battle come, I've forgotten my quest of the past lifetime!!"

For almost every other woman in the series in a relationship, I've gained respect seeing how she's acted in it and handled it (though Egwene could've been a bit more tactful)...

Definitely true...but I do think Egwene still has some growing up to do emotionally. It's like she's grown into so many of her responsibilities so quickly that some parts of her still need to catch up.

Ren Dashain said:

Agree x2 Also didnt Thom have a bit of a fling with his apprentice before she died? Whats up with that?

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It seemed to me when I re-read that part that she looked an awful lot like Moiraine. Maybe a tribute?

Asandra, the Moiraine and Thom thing really didn't surprise me. Everything about it made sense from my perspective.

Ren, Thom didn't have a fling with that woman in Cairhien. Think of it for a moment from Thom's perspective. He was physically attracted to Moiraine back in Emonds Field, but the whole Aes Sedai killed my nephew thing made it impossible for Thom to trust her at that point. Plus, Moiraine was on an important mission at the time, so she never really put forth any signs that she was interested in Thom as well. In fact, when the group got to Baerelon, I believe Min told Moirane that she's destined to fall in love with / marry Thom. She was probably like ... " WTF !!! " ? I doubt at that point she had realized that Thom wasn't just a wandering minstrel, but a legendary Bard who had gained a reputation for great skill in the Great Game of Houses, or that Thom was responsible for the death of her scheming uncle. From her Aes Sedai perspective, having Thom be her future lover was sort of insurance for her survival in their current quest to aid the Dragon Reborn. If she put off any romance, that would logically mean that she would have to survive the adventure in order to end up with Thom. I think in some ways Moirane had a little white ajah in her as well, because her actions are always based on logical thinking rather than how she "feels" at the moment. So, Thom splits up with the group fending off a Myrdraal that was trying to kill Mat & Rand. Thom takes a wound to the leg, then goes his separate ways.

Remember, we don't always get POV chapers from all the characters, so we have to guess a lot as to what Thom is thinking or what happened to him next.

But Thom never was told of Min's viewing. He just admired a woman's beauty and strength, but never thought anything would come of it because she was Aes Sedai, and there didn't seem to be any spark of interest from her towards him. So when Thom ended up in Cairhien, he didn't really have a fling with another woman. That woman was his only woman at the time.

And when the group is all weepy/sad when they learn that Thom was last seen fighting for his life against a Myrdraal, Moiraine is like... "oh well... I'm sure he's fine". She barely blinked an eye, nor did she even get sad for instant because she knew at that point that Thom couldn't have been killed, otherwise Min's viewing of them falling in love / getting married would never come to pass!

Tehmpus, I'm not so sure that Min is the one who told Moiraine; but I wasn't the least bit surprised that they made a love connection.

Morrighan Daghdera said:

Tehmpus, I'm not so sure that Min is the one who told Moiraine; but I wasn't the least bit surprised that they made a love connection.

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Yes, I'm fairly certain is was something she found through the red doorways in 'finnland, but I don't have my books with me to check at the moment.

Min's viewing of Thom pulling Moraines jewel out of a fire was first made me go hmmmm.

My impression was that Thom was going to go into great danger to save her at some point, and let's be honest here, most people that risk life and limb for another, it is because they love them.

There's also the letter. I mean sure, Thom may have just been worried about going inside the Tower of Ghenji, but I highly doubt it. Thom is battle-hardened, and not afraid of anything. Thom fawned over that letter for at least an entire book before Mat asked what was in it ... that was the last thing Thom had from the woman he realized he loved, that he thought he had lost. That's what tipped me off that their relationship was going to happen.

I guess I'll just have to disagree. I thought it was pretty conclusive at the end of The Eye of the World when everyone was so sad about Thom dying to a Myrdraal, and Moiraine's attitude was so calm, and not upset.

That happened before The Dragon Reborn so I don't see how her Finnland experience which happened afterwards could have affected her response in Book#1.

I will say that it is possible that she did spend one of her questions asking about Thom... which seems very probable since right afterwards she took the time to visit Thom in the servant's quarters, reveal that she knew that he'd either assassinated her scheming uncle or just caused it to happen with the Game of Houses, then threatened him if he didn't go with Elayne and Nynaeve with the promise that he would survive the adventure.

So, I agree that Moiraine probably did ask a question that pertained to Thom while in Finnland (what exactly she asked never was revealed) ; however, that doesn't mean that Min didn't reveal a viewing to her suggesting that in the future Thom and Moiraine would be a couple.

My explanation for Moiraine not feeling upset about Thom dying is directly related to a possible Min viewing. If Min had told Moiraine that Thom was going to marry her, then why would she feel sad about a myrddral possibly killing him? She knows Mins viewings are always true, so she knew that it hadn't killed him ... why worry?

Since the topic title isn't specific I'm throwing my own thought about couples in here.
What is the deal with several relatively young women, who will live a long, long time, falling for men who were already much older than they are.
Siuan-Gareth
Moiraine-Thom
Nynaeve-Lan

If Moragse actually practices her Channeling, even though she is weak, it could give her extended life, and she at least has someone who is younger and won't drop off in like 20 years.