Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- To the End!

Ryu Shadowborn said:

Verin – I am surprised that Verin is dumb enough to not go for a killing blow against an enemy first thing. Sure she would not know about inverting weaves and the like, however she is savvy enough to not assume she knows more than she thinks she does.

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I wonder if she's going through the same thought process that Elza was, trying to find the balance between not getting in trouble for hurting the bad guys without giving away to the good guys that she's Black? But it sounds weird to us since at this point we don't know about her yet.

Aduiavas Ida said:

I have always had a hard time understanding the mechanics of this Cleansing... I mean, I understand the theory, but are they implying that Rand somehow channeled ALL of saidin? How can that be, when the Source is not a measurable thing?

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He didn't have to channel all of saidin. He just had to channel enough to remove the filthy oil layer (taint) blocking the access to saidin. I understand it as channeling enough saidin in the conduit to make the Shadar Logoth evil attract all the Dark One's evil (taint) and for them to destroy each other.

Megana Vallentin said:

I really dislike the ending of this book. I enjoyed everything a lot until these last few chapters. I know it's mentioned a few times that Rand wants to cleanse saidin, but suddenly he's in Far Madding and then suddenly it's happening and there's a battle and it's done. The first time I read the book years ago, I had to backup and reread a bit because it caught me so much by surprise that the cleansing was happening. This time wasn't much better, even though I knew it was coming.

Maybe it's because I get so wrapped up in the Mat chapters that whatever Rand is doing is just not interesting to me at all. I have just barely enough time to start to enjoy the Far Madding plot, when suddenly they're gone from there. After the dramatic fall, we get a glimpse of Rand having a panic attack, Cadsuane does her thing, and they're GONE and on to the next plot.

:tug

This is the last book I read before I put down the series many years ago and didn't pick it up again until I got dragged along to meet Robert Jordan with a friend and decided he was so nice that I should give his series a second chance.

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I've always thought that the Cairhien Palace attack and subsequent subplots are just reader fodder. They didn't really serve any significant or meaningful purpose. Maybe it served the Fain subplot by making him go to the blight to wait for Rand :shrug

Aduiavas Ida said:

I have always had a hard time understanding the mechanics of this Cleansing... I mean, I understand the theory, but are they implying that Rand somehow channeled ALL of saidin? How can that be, when the Source is not a measurable thing?

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Well think about the Oil on the water metaphor, when Rand connects the Ocean of Saidin to Shadar Logath he triggers a "magnetic" attraction between the taint of the dark one and the taint of Mashadar, Both taint's are effectively infinite so they end up cancelling each other out.

I wonder if she's going through the same thought process that Elza was, trying to find the balance between not getting in trouble for hurting the bad guys without giving away to the good guys that she's Black? But it sounds weird to us since at this point we don't know about her yet.

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I don't know why anyone would think the DO would care about that, he actively encourages backstabbing and betrayal among the chosen most of the time.

Backstabbing among the Chosen yes. But not from "lower" darkfriends up to the Chosen. That is very heavenly frowned upon I think. Certainly by other Chosen, which Verin certainly needed to consider as well...

Pfft How do you think you become one of the Chosen? You stab one in the back.

Chapter 18:
-Despite their functions as warriors, the Ogier who fight for the Empress are still called Gardeners.
-Mat believes he’ll know when Rand does. He’s also one of the few people who gives no credence to the thought that Rand would swear fealty to the Tower.
-Pretties are a common practice in Altara, but not the way Tylin does it. Usually ‘Pretties’ are allowed to leave whenever they want.
-Lopin’s settling in well with Mat after Nalesean’s death.
-The Ebou Dari bellmaker thinks that fireworks are silly and useless, but bells are clearly not!
-Suroth and Tuon act as equals now that Tuon is doing her penance.
-Tuon keeps trying to catch glimpses of Mat and following him.
-Mat makes a fateful decision to check out the Wandering Woman to make sure his gold is safe.

Chapter 19:
-Poor Joline. :\ I mean, she may not be the friendliest to Mat, but that must be terrifying hiding out in Ebou Dar as an Aes Sedai with the Seanchan there!
-Mat’s super confused that an Illianer is so’jhin.
-It takes Mat awhile to recognize Domon.
-Domon almost recognizes Mat when he’s ‘kissing’ Joline.
-Mat strongly believes he owes Joline a debt and so is determined to rescue her when he leaves. He still keeps his promise, though, even when he realizes it wasn’t Joline who slipped him the note.
-Teslyn drugged Joline. :eek
-Tylin keeps stabbing the bedpost… you’d think she’d eventually slice right through it. It’s got to be full of holes right now.
-As much as Mat hates Aes Sedai, he struggles with the desire to save all the damane in the kennels.
-Teslyn will do anything if Mat helps her escape, even betray the White Tower. I can’t say I blame her.
-Two Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan have been broken and now are ‘loyal’ to the Seanchan. Mat doesn’t dare try to rescue them.
-In Seanchan, it’s considered a perversion to want to have sex with damane.

Chapter 20:
-Sul’dam call linking with a damane ‘being complete’. They’re forming a circle with the damane and it’s the only way they can connect to the One Power, since they don’t know that they can learn to channel.
-Renna and Seta are not allowed to be complete anymore.
-The sul’dam use Seanchan damane to train newly –captured damane, by putting them in a double room and letting them become friends. It is a clever idea.
-There are damane contests for the ‘prettiest damane’ where they deck them in ribbons. They really do treat the damane as much like animals as possible.
-Bethamin has realized that she can almost see damane’s weaves sometimes. After Tanchico, she now knows that she can channel and is terrified that someone will find out. As much as the idea that channelers are dangerous and need to be collared is ingrained in Seanchan, no one actually wants to be made damane. Even if they know that they ‘should’.
-To Bethamin, people on this continent sound like they talk slowly. But don’t people from the main continent also say that the Seanchan talk slowly?
-Bethamin manages to offend the innkeeper by suggesting that she buy her a new knife (not realizing its deep personal significance). She apparently hasn’t bothered to actually learn anything about the city where she’s living.
-The Seekers are interested in Egeanin.
-The Seeker believes Egeanin killed Renna and Seta.

Chapter 21:
-Egeanin is shocked that Bayle wouldn’t sleep in the same bed with her after she had him beaten and made her apologize.
-Egeaning believes the male a’dam is safe with Suroth. :facepalm
-She also thinks it might be necessary to use the male a’dam at some point… I guess it’s something you take more lightly if you’ve grown up with female a’dam being widely used.
-Egeanin isn’t against freeing Bayle from being her property, but the rules say that she needs to be able to provide for him before she does it.
-Egeanin’s views of damane are changing the more she learns.
-Egeanin’s new sigil is the chapter icon! Sad that it won’t last, though. I really do feel bad for Egeanin when she gets stripped of her rank.
-Egeanin sounds like she believes in Trollocs and Myrddraal, but doesn’t think they can really be that scary.
-Domon makes the excellent point about Suroth scheming with Aes Sedai. She hardly seems to see channelers as human, and if they are, they’re horribly diseased and disgusting and she wants nothing to do with them. She would have a hard time scheming with them.

Chapter 22:
-Two false dragons came from Far Madding. (Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow)
-A lot of Aiel who deserted came to Far Madding to try to follow the Way of the Leaf, without really knowing what it means.
-Rand almost turns back while following Rochaid. Continuing wasn’t a mistake, though, I suppose, as he did end up killing Rochaid without getting caught.
-Fain was the one who ordered the rogue Asha’man to kill Rand. Kisman doesn’t know who Dashiva was, though. He thinks he deserted or was just killed after they failed to kill Rand.
-Moridin wants Rand’s possessions. Does he want Callandor? Or does he know that Rand has the Choedan Kal ter’angreal?
-Nynaeve isn’t happy with the high-necked Far Madding dresses she’s wearing. Rand assumes she would prefer Two Rivers woolens, while she probably just would prefer the dresses to be less modest.
-Rand notices how much jewelry Nynave is wearing and thinks of how much attention it probably draws in Far Madding. He likely doesn’t realize that all of it’s ter’angreal/angreal.
-Rand can now draw very well because Lews Therin could.
-Slayer killed a Gray Man in the White Tower.

I have so many notes from this book that I need to write up.

It does feel like everything is getting rolled together. Mat is collecting all the people who will be helping him, and it's just bam, bam, bam, one after another they get lined up.

Re: Re-Readalong: Winter's Heart -- Chapters 2-7

Chapter 23:
-Aes Sedai have bonded several Asha’man who stayed with Rand after the attack on Cairhien.
-The Atha’an Miere won’t let shorebound learn about sextants.
-Harine dreams of using Gateways on the water to let the Sea Folk ships travel great distances.
-Sarene lost her temper when spanking Harine and Derah. Harine is embarrassed by it and tells Sarene that they shouldn’t speak of it anymore now that it’s done. She’s very uncomfortable around Sarene, though.
-Alanna is very anxious to reach Rand.
-Shalon is baffled by Aes Sedai ranking themselves by strength in the Power.
-The Aes Sedai who were involved in Rand’s capture act defiant toward the others.
-The Sea Folk think Ogiers are fables. Also Aelfinn. “Here come the Aelfinn to steal all your bread; here come the Ogier to chop off your head.” I wonder what inspired that rhyme, since as far as we can see, the Aelfinn and Ogier are about as different as any two groups in WoT can be.
-The Sea Folk use the word ‘sheathe’ to describe blocking someone from the Power.
-Harine tries to tell Sarene that they’ll discuss instructions in Far Madding, once she realizes Sarene won’t be able to channel, and Sarene misunderstands or pretends to misunderstand and replies as if discussing philosophy. Shalon is confused, too, and believes that her sister was talking about philosophy.
-The ter’angreal in Far Madding imitate the effects of Stilling more than Shielding. In Far Madding, you can’t even detect the Source. It’s just gone.

Chapter 24:
-Cadsuane planned this out very well and forced Harine to include Cadsuane in all invitations extended to her… like in Far Madding where Cadsuane wouldn’t necessarily be welcomed with open arms.
-Shalon finds parallels between the twelve Counsels in Far Madding and the First Twelve among the Atha’an Miere. There are 13 Counsels in Far Madding. Coincidence? Or does it relate to that magic number of 13 channelers?
-The wedges in the Far Madding ter’angreal change direction without spinning, but by pointing one direction and then, the next moment, pointing another. It sounds like a screen.
-Verin chooses a pseudonym.
-Verin reminds the Counsels of Guaire Amalasan’s siege of Far Madding.
-I like Shalon. She wants to try to avoid her sister until her temper cools. I can definitely understand that. I wouldn’t want to be around Harine. :x
-Cadsuane and Verin conspired on how to proceed with Aleis.
-Harine has surprising warmth toward Shalon and wants to be with her and help her while she’s scared of the effects of the ter’angreal.
-Shalon considers confessing to get out of having to deal with all this.

Chapter 25:
-Min hates Alivia because she knows the woman will help Rand die. She doesn’t see a difference between that and killing him.
-Alanna really sees Rand as her Warder.
-Alanna is pissed when he learns that Rand ‘let’ someone else bond him. No matter that it isn’t always a matter of ‘letting’ someone bond you as Alanna clearly showed, but he in no way sees himself as your Warder, nor should he! You may be bonded, but he’s not your Warder and he’s free to bond whomever he wants. You don’t own him. :mad
-Seriously, I feel like I was way more pissed at Alanna in this chapter than Rand is. Though I realize he’s also very good at hiding his emotions.
-Despite seeing Rand as her Warder, Alanna asked Cadsuane to take Rand’s bond. One point for Cadsuane that she was pissed about Alanna suggesting passing around Rand’s bond like that.
-Alanna sees Rand as her responsibility. :rolleyes
-Verin is ready to poison Cadsuane.

Chapter 26:
-Elayne can still feel Rand in Tel’aran’rhiod, but can’t tell where he is.
-Egwene is worried by the rumors about Rand and feels that she has to put the White Tower first.
-Everyone assumes Mellar is the father of Elayne’s child. She supports the rumors because it’s better than people knowing that it was the Dragon Reborn.
-Mistress Harfor is still looking into spies, with great success so far.
-What other matter is Mistress Harfor looking into? :scratch
-The Borderlander rulers know Elayne has some connection to Rand. How? :scratch

Chapter 27:
-Elayne compares her focus to how Birgitte feels when drawing a bow. Being bonded to Birgitte, she knows what that feels like.
-Aviendha is baffled by the phrase ‘black-eyed Aiel’. She only knows wetlanders as having black eyes. Could be because of their black veils.
-Elayne is a good tactician.
-Elayne tells the Borderland rulers that a search in Murandy will be profitable, hoping that they will take the place Egwene’s army held in deterring nobles in the south.
-Tenobia keeps talking about how much she wants to see her uncle. Elayne thinks she must be very fond of him. Meanwhile, Bashere fears Tenobia wants him dead.

The Borderlanders have heard the rumours about Falme... And I suspect that Hurin may have told them a lot, he travelled first with Rand to Falme and then Elayne to the Tower...

Ohh, that's true. I forgot that Hurin would have talked with them. That would make sense.



Catching up, wheee...
Chapter 28:
-Damane have to walk while their sul’dam ride.
-The Seanchan have da’covale helping to clear up the Rahad.
-Mat is known as Tylin’s Toy in Ebou Dar.
-Juilin is getting the Amathera to run away with him.
-Anath (Semirhage) keeps leaving on errands.

Chapter 29:
-While I understand Mat’s frustration with Joline not wanting to wear the a’dam to escape, it’s completely understandable that she doesn’t want to! I mean, she is right that if anything goes wrong, she’ll be helpless and it’d be simple for the Seanchan to just scoop her up, since she’d already be leashed. I understand Mat’s frustration, but he could definitely be a bit more sympathetic here.
-Mat’s surprised by Setalle Anan’s hatred for the Seanchan and the practice of suld’dam and damane.
-Joline almost recognizes Setalle Anan.
-Setalle is hopeful that she can be a sul’dam (I suppose she’s hoping that her past connection with the power would allow it), not realizing that sul’dam are women who can learn to channel, which unfortunately would no longer be true for her.
-Thom assumes Elayne and Nynaeve have told Rand about the existence of the male a’dam… they really should have, though I suppose it has difficult to locate Rand at this point.

Chapter 30:
-Mat is pretty sure the prophecy of him dying and living again has already happened in Rhuidean.
-Serving women are betting on when Mat will run away from Ebou Dar and they’re not happy about it.

Chapter 31:
-Mat lets a Windfinder damane escape and free the others as a distraction. She is understandably grateful.
-Aanddd Mat accidentally does his half of a Seanchan wedding ceremony. :rolleyes Ta’veren are weird.
-There’s a rumor of an army vanishing in Murandy. Is this the Band of the Red Hand? :scratch
-Mat takes Tuon with them partially because of the Aelfinn’s prophecy, though I’m sure the primary reason is to hide evidence of his escape for as long as possible.

Chapter 32:
-The Stone of Tear is under siege right now??? Is that just a rumor or am I missing something???
-Verin recommends that Rand accept Cadsuane as his advisor and use her advice well. She helps facilitate it.
-Seriously, Min? You almost destroyed Rand’s mail???
-As Min expected, Rand wants to spring the trap the letter mentions if it will let him kill Torval and Gedwyn.

Chapter 33:
-Every bedside table in the inn has a strap in it… Ebou Dar is a decidedly odd place. This is apparently considered normal.
-Alivia is older than anyone else we’ve met in the books, but she’s still kind of a child at heart and loves children’s games. Really, it’s a surprise she’s as seemingly normal as she is after hundreds of years of captivity!
-Toram Riatin has really been manipulated by Fain.
-The throbbing in Rand’s side is way worse when Fain is near.

The vanishing army is Egwene and her Aes Sedai

Kassina Tendar said:

Ohh, that's true. I forgot that Hurin would have talked with them. That would make sense.

Chapter 32:
-The Stone of Tear is under siege right now??? Is that just a rumor or am I missing something???

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The rebels in Haddon Mirk and others moved to besiege the Stone of Tear after Rand appointed Darlin as his steward in Tear. They were encouraged by the Seanchan (I think); and some of them were played by Pedron Niall when he was alive.

Ohh, thank you. There's so much to keep track of at this point in the series that I forget some of the side things like that.

Chapter 34:
-Nynaeve is really dumb here… she seriously thought the ter’angreal in Far Madding wouldn’t notice saidar if it was little enough?? I thought she was just hoping that the ter’angreal would only notice someone drawing on the Power through the source, not through a storage ter’angreal… but nope, she was apparently just hoping it depended on quantity. :facepalm
-Alivia is very confident and doesn’t back down… until she finds someone she can’t just stare down. Then she becomes very meek. Makes sense, given her background.
-Cadsuane shows her dedication to Rand and Rand only. She breaks someone she respects in order to free Rand.

Chapter 35:
-Rand tries to forcibly control Saidar like he does Saidin and it doesn’t work. He has to learn how to fight Saidin while surrendering to Saidar.
-Alivia’s strong enough that she doesn’t need a circle in her defense of Rand/Nynaeve. There are three circles and then there’s Alivia.
-The Amayar are troubled that the Sea Folk don’t follow the Water Way. They are kind of the opposite of the Sea Folk in that they hate to get far from land. They appoint people to help protect the Atha’an Miere from themselves.
-Timna, the Amayar whose perspective we see for a moment, is happy to think of the end of Illusion and the mass suicide that is to follow.
-The Forsaken all arrive to stop Al’Thor, but with very different attitudes. Osan’gar/Dashiva hopes he won’t have to do anything and hopes the others will have killed Al’Thor before he gets there. So does Moghedien.
-Verin encounters a woman channeling, but she can’t see the weaves! :eek Makes sense that you wouldn’t instantly think “It must be Saidin!” That’s certainly convenient for Asan’gar.
-Luckily Eben is there and figures out what’s going on quickly enough for them to respond
-Callandor is so commonplace that Jahar’s just sitting there with it resting on his arm and no one cares. Everything’s gone crazy so what was legendary just a few books ago is now just a normal weapon. (albeit a dangerous one)
-Cadsuane proves her loyalty 10 times over, doing all that she can to protect Rand and Nynaeve. She Heals Nynaeve a bit while trying to balance the strength of the shield above them.
-No one besides Osan’gar has an angreal among the Forsaken. At least the good guys win out in that regard!
-Elza is just an ordinary Black Ajah and doesn’t realize who Dashiva is.
-The Choedan Kal has survived an incredibly long time given how much of the Power is being used through it. They’re using so much of the Power that even the insane power of the Choedan Kal is being strained.
-The female key breaks, but luckily the male one doesn’t
-And Shadar Logoth is gone. That’s certainly a perk!
-Alivia is shocked at how well Damer’s Healing worked.
-Eben :cry :cry
-Dashiva dies and no one realizes he was one of the Forsaken